Having Problems Starting

[steve_wilson]

hi all,

 

 

having some troubles getting my 2.0l pinto 2b to start. the batterys at 13v and has been on charge overnight. also has good earths to the engine, chassis and start motor. but still seems to turn over quite slowly.

 

it has a high lift cam and vernier pulley and is running on points. using easy start and petrol down the carb i managed to get it to "sort of fire up" but it feels as though theres just not enough of something there, maybe only firing on 3 cylinders

 

couple of things i need to make sure:

 

the firing sequence is 1-3-4-2?

 

i should have the vernier pulley set at 0 degrees (not sure if that helps, just thought thats what it would be standard)?

 

have you got any suggestions at all?! im stumped.

 

Thanks, steve

[Guest The Modfather]

Is the engine tight to turn by hand? i.e. by putting a big spanner/torque wrench/socket on the pulley? Is it a newly built engine? The firing order is right. The battery should be holding around 14.2 v, how old is the battery? Do you have a good spark from the coil? Are your points and timing set correctly? Check HT leads and plugs, but it should turn over quick enough on 13 v. Check all earths again using multimeter.

Just out of curiosity, are you getting fuel in the carb? I would first check engine for tightness. I had an engine built years ago by a reputable company, and they got the bearing caps mixed up, which cause a tight slow turning engine that wouldn't fire!

Go through fuel circuit if engine turns free enough by hand, then check electric circuit, using a battery of another car (or jump leads), and multimeter the alternator once you get it running and disconnect jump leads (or you'll be reading the second battery!)

 

1. Check engine tightness

2. Check all earths, again on multimeter

3. Check electric circuit connections, inc coil, HT leads, points and timing, plug gaps

4. Check enough fuel coming into carb

5. Use second battery or jump leads

6. Once running, check your alt with multimeter to see if alt is faulty. Also check battery.

7. Phone AA

 

Hope this helps you?

 

Darren

[steve_wilson]

Is the engine tight to turn by hand? i.e. by putting a big spanner/torque wrench/socket on the pulley? Is it a newly built engine? The firing order is right. The battery should be holding around 14.2 v, how old is the battery? Do you have a good spark from the coil? Are your points and timing set correctly? Check HT leads and plugs, but it should turn over quick enough on 13 v. Check all earths again using multimeter.

Just out of curiosity, are you getting fuel in the carb? I would first check engine for tightness. I had an engine built years ago by a reputable company, and they got the bearing caps mixed up, which cause a tight slow turning engine that wouldn't fire!

Go through fuel circuit if engine turns free enough by hand, then check electric circuit, using a battery of another car (or jump leads), and multimeter the alternator once you get it running and disconnect jump leads (or you'll be reading the second battery!)

 

1. Check engine tightness

2. Check all earths, again on multimeter

3. Check electric circuit connections, inc coil, HT leads, points and timing, plug gaps

4. Check enough fuel coming into carb

5. Use second battery or jump leads

6. Once running, check your alt with multimeter to see if alt is faulty. Also check battery.

7. Phone AA

 

Hope this helps you?

 

Darren

 

1. the engine is fairly tight, i struggle to turn it by hand with a socket wrench on the crankshaft pulley, without the plugs in it's easy enough

2. the earths ar good, using some jump leads i made some more temporary earth straps too with no success

3. ht leads seem ok and as far as i can tell (although im no expert) the timing is ok. what are the plug gaps meant to be?

4. i'm pouring fuel down the carb at the moment which has always got results in the past so its definatly getting fuel

5. i've tried this off my corsa and it made no difference to the speed it turned over

6. do you need the alternator to be connected to run?

7. probably not a bad idea the way things are going!!!

 

the engine has been rebuilt by the previous builder with some performance parts so it could have raised compression etc i dont know its spec very well.

 

are there any suggestions? i have a spare starter motor which i will try but i've got a feeling the problem lies deeper than that!

 

Thanks, steve

[Guest chris brown]

Is the valve timing correct?

Is the ignition timing correct and not 360 degrees out? (easy mistake to make)

It could be a lazy starter motor does it spin it over quickly with the plugs out?

Tipping neat fuel down the manifold does tend to wet the plugs quickly then it won’t start.

Is there a good strong spark (blue) at all plugs?

Is the -ve (earth) direct to the bell housing and none of the ends on either +ve or -ve getting hot under cranking.

 

do you need the alternator to be connected to run?

No

[Guest Tim Norman]

Chris, do you mean 180 degrees out?

[Guest The Modfather]

Pouring fuel down carb is good but will only allow the engine to start and run if further fuel is coming in after it. If you have trouble starting the engine, the fuel that you've tipped in the carb will be pushed out the valves upon compression and will just go into exhaust unburnt. One or two pots may ignite but the rest will just be thrown out. Sorry, I should have said that you should be able to turn the engine over easily WITHOUT plugs fitted. I'd put money on even Arnold Schwarzenneger not being able to turn it over with them in, LOL.

Take starter motor out and spin it up on the battery and see how quick the dog throws out. Hold on tight (or clamp in a vice) as a good starter could easily twist out of your hands. Use a multimeter to continuity test every earth lead, and every earth mounting point and cable connector face should be clean and shiny, i.e. rub each part with Emery paper.

The Corsa battery may not be man enough to turn over the engine fast enough, as you're probably using one from a 1200/1400cc car trying to turn a 2000cc engine, which as you say may be high compression. Try a bigger battery if you can get hold of one. I found this out my self when using my Ford Fusion (1400)battery to try and start my friend's 1900cc MGB GT. He had similar probs as you, and we went through the basics as already stated. It just didn't have enough juice. Took his battery out of his Vectra (1800) and it whizzed it up no probs. But then we found out that his starter was arcing out on itself, so a new one was fitted and the prob was sorted.

Not sure what the gap should be, but easy to find out on the www.

Are battery posts clean? Clean them regardless and smear both terminals with Vaseline, stops furring up. Are battery leads thick enough? As stated are they getting hot when engine is cranked? If so, you could either have a +ve arcing to earth, or they just aren't thick enough.

Do you have fuel pipes connected? If so, take it off where it connects to the carb, using a suitable container, crank it over and see if the pump is moving the fuel into the carb.

Long and short of it is, if the engine's tight, it's either been put together with bearing caps mismatched, or caps over torqued, too many shims on crank endfloat (highly unlikely), piston rings put on wrong way round (again unlikely but sometimes possible) They are worse case senarios. The others could be a dodgy starter, battery too small or duff, bad earths, battery leads too small, duff coil, HT leads, points, condensor, plugs.

The alternator only chargers the battery and allows lights and ancillaries to run from that rather than the battery.

 

Good luck, and start with the most obvious, as this is normally the case. If you think the earth points are clean, clean them again!

 

Darren

[Guest Botbuilder]

Spark plug gaps should be .020" to.025" or .5mm to .6mm.

 

Has the engine ever run, or is this the first time you have tried to start it?

 

Alan

[Guest steveyb]

i'm pouring fuel down the carb at the moment which has always got results in the past so its definatly getting fuel

 

 

So, you have had it running previously?

If yes, what was it running like the last time it ran, was it rough?

[steve_wilson]

Is the valve timing correct?

Is the ignition timing correct and not 360 degrees out? (easy mistake to make)

It could be a lazy starter motor does it spin it over quickly with the plugs out?

Tipping neat fuel down the manifold does tend to wet the plugs quickly then it won’t start.

Is there a good strong spark (blue) at all plugs?

Is the -ve (earth) direct to the bell housing and none of the ends on either +ve or -ve getting hot under cranking.

 

No

 

not sure about the valve timing, i didnt set this up, the engine has been rebuilt by the previous builder so i'm assuming its right. its another thing i need to check.

 

the ignition timing is definatly right

 

the starter motor turns the engine over with relative ease without the plugs in

 

there is a good blue spark at all the plugs

 

and all the earths are good.

 

 

Pouring fuel down carb is good but will only allow the engine to start and run if further fuel is coming in after it. If you have trouble starting the engine, the fuel that you've tipped in the carb will be pushed out the valves upon compression and will just go into exhaust unburnt. One or two pots may ignite but the rest will just be thrown out. Sorry, I should have said that you should be able to turn the engine over easily WITHOUT plugs fitted. I'd put money on even Arnold Schwarzenneger not being able to turn it over with them in, LOL.

Take starter motor out and spin it up on the battery and see how quick the dog throws out. Hold on tight (or clamp in a vice) as a good starter could easily twist out of your hands. Use a multimeter to continuity test every earth lead, and every earth mounting point and cable connector face should be clean and shiny, i.e. rub each part with Emery paper.

The Corsa battery may not be man enough to turn over the engine fast enough, as you're probably using one from a 1200/1400cc car trying to turn a 2000cc engine, which as you say may be high compression. Try a bigger battery if you can get hold of one. I found this out my self when using my Ford Fusion (1400)battery to try and start my friend's 1900cc MGB GT. He had similar probs as you, and we went through the basics as already stated. It just didn't have enough juice. Took his battery out of his Vectra (1800) and it whizzed it up no probs. But then we found out that his starter was arcing out on itself, so a new one was fitted and the prob was sorted.

Not sure what the gap should be, but easy to find out on the www.

Are battery posts clean? Clean them regardless and smear both terminals with Vaseline, stops furring up. Are battery leads thick enough? As stated are they getting hot when engine is cranked? If so, you could either have a +ve arcing to earth, or they just aren't thick enough.

Do you have fuel pipes connected? If so, take it off where it connects to the carb, using a suitable container, crank it over and see if the pump is moving the fuel into the carb.

Long and short of it is, if the engine's tight, it's either been put together with bearing caps mismatched, or caps over torqued, too many shims on crank endfloat (highly unlikely), piston rings put on wrong way round (again unlikely but sometimes possible) They are worse case senarios. The others could be a dodgy starter, battery too small or duff, bad earths, battery leads too small, duff coil, HT leads, points, condensor, plugs.

The alternator only chargers the battery and allows lights and ancillaries to run from that rather than the battery.

 

Good luck, and start with the most obvious, as this is normally the case. If you think the earth points are clean, clean them again!

 

Darren

 

the corsa a 1.6turbo so i would have thought it would be a reasonable size. eiher way i'll use my dads mondeo and give that a whirl. the battery thats fitted to the 2b is a brand new one but i dont think it's meant for a 2.0 as its only a small battery.

 

Spark plug gaps should be .020" to.025" or .5mm to .6mm.

 

Has the engine ever run, or is this the first time you have tried to start it?

 

Alan

 

thanks for this info, the engine has never run before, first time ive tried to start it.

 

 

i'm pouring fuel down the carb at the moment which has always got results in the past so its definatly getting fuel

 

 

So, you have had it running previously?

If yes, what was it running like the last time it ran, was it rough?

 

i was talking about on previous kit cars it usually gets results.

 

 

I think i'll connect up the fuel lines and put some fuel in the tank and try jumping off a bigger battery and see how that works!

 

fingers crossed!!!

 

 

Thanks to everyone for all your input, i'll report back soon enough!

[Guest chris brown]

Chris, do you mean 180 degrees out?

No 360 degrees on the crank so timing on TDC of exhaust stroke and not TDC compression.

[Guest peter2b2002]

after a 4 month lat up last year my engine wouldn't start, turned out to be OLD FUEL, put some new in bingo fired up straight away.

worth a thought

peter2b

[Guest Ian & Carole]

I think if this was my engine, after checking every thing is correct, timming fuel supply valve clerances, earth cables etc.

 

I would disconect the alternator and give it a quick 24volts to get it spinning.

 

Should warm its bum a bit

 

Not for to long cranking though as it may damage the starter if you keep doing it.

 

Worked to great effect on the rally cars over the years.

[Guest Botbuilder]

New fuel sounds like a really good idea. My 2B was running like a pig with old unleaded, difficult to start and very rough when it did start.

If the fuels really old you may need to clean the carb float chamber and try with fressh fuel

[fry61]

Probably a dumb idea -- but how warm is it in your 'shop--freezing cold engine & battery plus old fuel will not help.

[Guest The Modfather]

Probably a dumb idea -- but how warm is it in your 'shop--freezing cold engine & battery plus old fuel will not help.

 

I started mine up today after a 2 week cockpit rebuild, and it wouldn't turn over. I had to stick a quick boost on the battery to get it going. The battery is 6 months old and is normally on trickle charge and always shows a strong battery, so it goes to show that a laid up car, even though left in a fairly warm garage, has trouble starting.

 

I was of the impression that you had the fuel lines connected and that you were just using a drop to get it fired. As already said, how old is the fuel you are using? Have you tried warming the carb with a hairdryer ONLY, and stick the plugs in the oven for an hour to get them nice and hot? I'm not a fan of quick-start, and prefer to use butane as it has a lower ignition temp. Just mind the blow back in the carb!

 

I would defo check the valve timing. Have you checked the low tension side of the coil? Have you heard THIS engine running? Do you have the right plugs fitted? Personally, I would check valve timing, check electric circuit entirely from LT side up to and inc plugs, the weight of oil in engine, i.e. 20/50 is very heavy and cars suffer trying to start with oil this thick! Fit a fuel line rather than just dropping some down the carb throat, as even if it does fart up, it will die immediately, and you'll see better what the prob is once the engine is running long enough.

 

I really hope you get it sorted though. Are there any fellow hoodies in your area that can pop over to help you?

 

Regards and happy new year.