S7 Pinto, Upgrade To 5 Speed ?

[Guest Hunty]

Ive recently bought a S7,

 

Its running a 2 litre on throttle bodies, with a 4 speed box,

The car used to run a 1600, thats why it runs a 4 speed box,

 

Im fine with ratios, the car drives well, but the clutch slips when giving it some 'beans'

 

So i could fit an uprated clutch to handle the 150hp the engine produces,

Or use a standard or uprated 2.0 clutch with a 5 speed box,

 

How strong are the 4 speed boxes ? Strong enough to run 150 hp ?

I do have a reciept for a rebuild on the gearbox a few years back,

 

How different are the ratios on the 2 gearboxes ? ie 1st and 2nd ?

What difference would i notice ?

i dont really find i need a 5th gear when up to cruising speed, i never drive that far in it on major roads, always twisty b-roads

 

Any ideas or reccomendations ?

[maccavvy]

only reason imo youd fit a 5 speed is cruising economy. a decent branded clutch should easy take 150 bhp .

if not motorsport world do uprated ap clutches.

[Guest Alan_builder]

Ok,

 

Some preconceived ideas, drop them!

 

The standard 2L pinto clutch (i think the 1600 is the same) is good for 225 beans (BHP) (or there abouts no arguments it's over 200). So your slipping clutch is another problem, nackered plate or pressure plate or oil or any combination you can dream of! Save your money on an uprated clutch. The Pinto clutch is the favored one for the Zetec and CVZ (CVH with turbo) all producing or aiming at 180 beans +.

 

You need to think about your trips to the shows, Detling, Bob and Mo's, Stonleigh, Newark, Le Mans, now that trip will convince you, you need a 5th gear! If you get into club activities (drinking beer) then you will need 5th.

[Longboarder]

Depends what four speed box you have as to how much power it will take. Have a look at gearboxes in the Burton catalogue. Gives a lot of usefull info. 150 horses should be OK if you are a sympathetic driver. If you like to fit wide sticky rubber and do drags then your box may not last too long but neither will an old type nine if you're really brutal or run 180+. There are uprated type 9's available for lots of dosh or go for a MT75 which is stronger for not much money but may be a tight fit in a monocoque.

Gear ratios are next and the type 9 five speed has a dog of a first gear. Far too low with a great leap to second. MT75 is much better. Most of the four speeders are better as well.

I wouldn't be in a rush to fit a five speed box if I had a good fourspeeder and if it was a little buzzy on the motorways I would consider changing the diff which is easier, probably cheaper and you could find an LSD to improve handling.

Clutch as above. Sounds like yours is knackered somehow!

 

Nigel

[Guest Hunty]

Great info guys,

 

Sounds like im best to just fit a good quality clutch and keep the same box.

I might do a couple track days, but im not a hard driver, and im not hard on the car.

 

I could always go 5 speed one day in the future,

 

Am i right in thinking its easier to remove engine to change clutch, rather than remove gearbox on these cars ?,

(il be changing it on the driveway !)

[Peter Bell]

Hi yes you have to remove the engine to get the gear box out on a monocoque, you will have to take the engine out anyway to do the clutch. Have you checked the clutch adjustment? have you got some free play in the cable when your foot is off the pedal?

[Guest Hunty]

Clutch pedal is really high, bites just up from the floor,

Engages all gears ok, slips under hard acceleration and gear changes

[XSU976]

Hunty,

The full clutch was replaced with a new one in June (not an expensive one admittedly, standard motor factor part), its predecessor had done 3 trips to Barkston and was still intact although highly blackened when removed, this was with the 1600 probably putting out 65bhp at best.

 

I took the car to Barkstone in July and it was given some beans around the track but there was no slipping of the clutch coming the 100 miles back.

 

You say the pedal bites really high, this should be adjustable there could be a little tension in the clutch cable, there is adjustment of sorts in the coupling where the cable enters the bulkhead, it is possible the automatic adjustment has clicked on a tooth and is keeping things slightly tighter meaning you are very slightly riding the clutch, I have read on here where people have removed this particular adjustment which may have been due to a similar issue.

 

When first installed I had a standard clutch cable which was a little short, I fitted the longer 4X4 cable and before fitting the adjustment coupling struggled to disengage gears and the bite was litteraly on the floor.

 

I suggest you reset the clutch cable before doing anything more radical and wasting money, the automatic adjuster is a real pig to get at under the cover on top of the pedal box but can be moved with patience. The options to replace the clutch seemed very limited when I did the swop due to the difference in splines 21 against 23 I think meaning that a 2ltr clutch plate will not fit as suggested above, in fact the contact surfaces are considerably smaller on the 1.6 against 2ltr, I know because we were given the wrong part initially.

I guess there must be a high performance 1.6 plate which may help but I really doubt that this is really needed, considering the weight of the car I would expect the car to simply accelerate rather than overload the clutch unless you are on an incline or towing.

 

Listen to the guys, take time to consider the change, you will need to replace the propshaft as well as the 4 speed is shorter, take the car on a good run, go to a show or even better Barkston have a play and then make your mind up, driving fun or economy.

 

Hope you are still enjoying the car

 

Tom Hayden

[Andy Spencer]

I used to run an S7 with a 4 speed box. Upgraded from a 1600 to 2 litre. Some earlier 1600 clutches were smaller diameter - if that flywheel and clutch arrangement was transferred to to 2 litre engine and it was upgraded for power could be a potential issue.

 

I found a clutch plate that would fit the 7/8" 20 spline 4 speed box but was a 2 litre diameter so kept the 2 litre flywheel and clutch system. If you end up dismantling may be worth checking this.

Cheers

[Guest Alan_builder]

Hi Hunty,

 

Soon as I saw Nick Hayden say 21 against 23 splines the penny dropped. The Cortina was fitted with a 1.3 engine as an option. The clutch on the 1600 pinto is the same as the 1300 and hence your problem with 150 beans.

 

So the reason to fit a 5 speed box is to get the 23 spline 2L pinto clutch plate. I bet the pinto clutch assy and a 5 speed type 9 are less than an uprated 1600 pinto job.

 

A posted not long ago, a chap had a problem disengaging gears. His clutch was too low on the floor. The automatic clutch adjuster takes up a lot of pedal travel. Most sorry some of us have long legs and the Sierra box ends up too close to us so we build the car with the pedal hitting the foot well end. Then we put a spacer on the outside of the clutch pall to get larger movement. In the end we sort it out but its frustration trying. I ended up making the release pin on the pedal adjustable, so it would work to set the clutch cable tension and then I removed it (lowered it) so the clutch started pulling as soon as the pedal was pushed. Worked a treat.

[steve_wilson]

pretty sure the 4 speed gearbox has a different number of splines on the output to the 5 speed too, so a new prop would be needed

 

worth double checking as ive never actually inspected a 4 speed box, but i seem to remember reading that somewhere...

[Andy Spencer]

pretty sure the 4 speed gearbox has a different number of splines on the output to the 5 speed too, so a new prop would be needed

 

worth double checking as ive never actually inspected a 4 speed box, but i seem to remember reading that somewhere...

Correct if its a 20 spline 4 speed box, think the 23 spline 4 speeders fitted to some 2ltr Cortinas had the same output as the type 9 box.

 

If you are definitely happy with the 4 speed I am sure Burton still do the 20 spline 2 litre diameter plates (I got mine off Big Jim who may remember where he sourced it from) so all you'd need is a 2ltr flywheel, as if I remember the 1.6 20 spline one is smaller and different bolt up positions. Not sure whether release bearing is same but inexpensive to change anyway whilst its all out.

Cheers

[Guest Alan_builder]

Correct if its a 20 spline 4 speed box, think the 23 spline 4 speeders fitted to some 2ltr Cortinas had the same output as the type 9 box.

 

If you are definitely happy with the 4 speed I am sure Burton still do the 20 spline 2 litre diameter plates (I got mine off Big Jim who may remember where he sourced it from) so all you'd need is a 2ltr flywheel, as if I remember the 1.6 20 spline one is smaller and different bolt up positions. Not sure whether release bearing is same but inexpensive to change anyway whilst its all out.

Cheers

 

That explains why a good guy said the prop would fit and it didn't. So you won't know if the prop wil fit till you take it apart.

You could try the Ford Escort Mexico or the mark 1 Lotus Cortina, these may be cheaper than the Burton offerings.

[Guest Hunty]

Umm interesting, u know what guys, it could be me riding the clutch, as the clutch pedal sits really high, next time ive got the car out il have a good look at cable and adjustment, loving the car tom, its not been out for a month, waiting for a reasonable day !

[Guest The Modfather]

From memory the Mexico and the Lotus both used type 3 four speed boxes which was used through a whole range of Fords. This is the same box that I have sat in my garage. It has either 19 or 20 spines, can't remember but as stated above Burtons does state what it has.