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Too Much Oil?pinto With Shortened Sump


Guest jacques.vins

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Guest sandy77uk

someone help me out here, this is the advice from raceline

 

"The sump holds a full five litres, and we recommend that owners recalibrate the oil dipstick to suit their particular vehicle installation. Once the engine has been installed in the car, fill the sump with precisely five litres of your chosen lubricant (measuring carefully to ensure accuracy), then lightly scribe a ‘full’ mark on the dipstick"

 

http://www.raceline.co.uk/products/part_section.asp?SectionID=40&CategoryID=2

 

this is what I've done, are we now saying raceline don't even know their own sump?

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Back to the old story. My Grandfather worked for Crown maintaining trucks. He was sent to South Africa where they kept killing engines by "running" the main bearings and big ends in a couple of weeks. Phone-calls and letters back and forth with servicing instructions laid down in idiot fashion step by step instructions brought no improvement and they promised faithfully that they were following the instructions to the letter. Everywhere else in the world the same trucks ran for many hundreds of thousands of miles with no problems. So Grandpa was sent out there (at no small expense I would imagine in those days) to watch what they were doing and see if he could maintain a truck and make it last more than a couple of weeks. Not sure how long it took but he did spot the problem. When topped up with oil to the mark on the dipstick there was about half a pint of oil left in the bottom of the bottle. In the other countries this was left in the bottle or combined with the half pint left from the next truck and used to top other vehicles up at a later date or thrown in the next truck to get a service. In SA however it was common practice to just throw it into the engine as it was only a little bit compared to what they had just put in there (probably gallons). Problems then arose because that brought the top surface of the oil high enough that on steeper slopes or hills the crankshaft was dipping into the oil and whipping it into foam. Back then the oils had less anti-foaming additives to prevent that so before long the oil pump is trying to suck foam and it can't - main and big end bearings are starved of oil and they were simply the first thing to let go.

 

The important thing to pay attention to is the level of the oil. THAT'S THE TOP SURFACE REGARDLESS OF THE AMOUNT OF OIL IN THERE.

 

Reducing the capacity of oil can make it run hotter as there is less oil to spread the heat around. So you need a decent cooling system to supplement that lost cooling. In an extreme case you can run into the problem of all the oil being in the engine and none left in the sump but you would have to take a lot more than an inch off the sump to do that. Adding a box to the side of the sump can help replace the lost capacity of the sump (the pool of oil in the sump is shallower but it's wider so the same amount). An oil cooler can help in this respect too as it adds capacity in the pipes and radiator.

 

Iain

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someone help me out here, this is the advice from raceline

 

"The sump holds a full five litres, and we recommend that owners recalibrate the oil dipstick to suit their particular vehicle installation. Once the engine has been installed in the car, fill the sump with precisely five litres of your chosen lubricant (measuring carefully to ensure accuracy), then lightly scribe a ‘full’ mark on the dipstick"

 

http://www.raceline....40&CategoryID=2

 

this is what I've done, are we now saying raceline don't even know their own sump?

 

They might know their sump inside out but they haven't exercised any common sense/logic when writing the instructions and they've been lucky that the raised surface level of the oil hasn't caused any problems.

 

Look at my real life example - it clearly explains why it's the LEVEL that is important and not the CAPACITY.

 

Effectively Raceline are suggesting they know the engine better than Ford. Personally I reckon that Ford have spent a bit of time and money on this sort of thing and might just know what they are talking about.

 

Just out of interest - how much higher than the Ford mark is the new one that Raceline's instructions results in? and does the Zetec have a windage plate or horizontal baffle?

 

Iain

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Guest mower man

Oil in a sump has to do two things:

  • Be high enough to be sucked up by the pick up pipe,
  • Be low enough not to touch the crankshaft.

This is what the two marks are for on a dipstick.

 

Assuming you haven’t shorted your pick up pipe (or lowed your crankshaft) these marks should remain the same.

 

 

Andy

 

It is not possible to shorten a pinto sump without shortening the pickup pipe !! thebloody thing will not fit , the pick up must have clearance between it and the bottom of the sump, as pointed out in other posts the level must not allow crank or conrods to dip in the oil whilst running ,it does not matter wethet it is modern oil or not youwill have probs least of which would be oil leaks . I think the thread has been led astray by talking about 2 different engines i.e. pinto and zetec ,I run a pinto with modded sump ,not just shortened but also extended forwards it carries 4.5 litres , if there is oil on the dipstick there is enough to run it .I dont now much about the zetec but would think that if you put the orig cap ,say 4.5 l of oil in it will be ample if you put more in then rear main oilseal probs may be the first prob and poss frothing unless there is a windage plate in the sump and the RUNNING oil level is above it plus numerous other probs ,my ops only based on 40+ years playing with engines large and small mower man

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Red herrings in a moment but back to the OP Jaques-vins questions. With a shortened sump, with or without replacement capacity built back in you no longer know what the oil capacity is. The correct procedure is simply to continue using the max level on an unaltered dipstick. If the dipstick will no longer go fully home in the dipstick tube you can progressively cut 5mm sections off the tip of the dipstick til it no longer touches the bottom of the sump. Don't alter the dipstick marks.

Overfilling with say a litre of oil will not slow cranking significantly. I would check and clean all the electrical connections and wiring to the starter and the engine earth. Also check that ignition timing is not to far advanced.

 

Now the zetec red herrings.The raceline sump is a great bit of kit. It has a horizontal baffle, vertical baffles, oil pickup plumbing cast in so doesn't use the ford pickup. You can buy their windage plate or use the one that comes on the silvertop. The top and rear faces of the sump are machined flat. The top face takes a silvertop sump gasket. When fitting, the rear face is level with the back face of the block so bolts up flush to a type 9 bellhousing. They even designed in two threaded bolt holes so you use those usualy redundant two bottom boltholes in the bellhousing. The underside of the sump is finned and flush with the bellhousing. The lower part of the sump is expanded with mini wings each side so capacity is good. Altogether a great bit of kit. (Not perfect. They obviously designed it with a zetec bolted to a type 9 (but without a starter motor in place) on a stand in the workshop. Some of the back left flange is then machined off during production to allow the starter to fit. Oops! But their instructions are poor.

Interestingly they have similar quality instros with the water rail. When I bought one they did not advise using a header tank. Their instros ran to two pages of A4 and said something like, 'Dont use an overflow bottle or pressurised tank, fill to the top, run up to temperature and it will vent out excess water. Don't refill. Just run with this level' As it is the high point of the cooling system, the thermostat is in the top of it at the front, it was going to be running from cold with mostly air in it according to their instructions, I fitted mine briefly but never ran it. Had a strop, decided I didn't like their kit or their instros and sold it on at a loss. If I hadn't read their instructions back in 2006 I would have thought it through, drilled a 3-4mm hole in the stat, added a simple spit/suck catch tank and I would still have been running the rail. Doh!

Thankfully I never read the instructions that came with the sump. Real men don't read instructions! :o :D

 

Nigel

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The top mark on the original dipstick is the highest level the oil should be filled to as started previously as the only thing that has changed is the depth of the sump, the engine crankshaft remains at the same level at the bottom of it's stroke to the dipstick.

Reading through the details of the raceline sump it states it is shallower and wider to maintain an adequate oil capacity

( In order to accomplish this whilst at the same time ensuring adequate oil capacity, the sump must necessarily be wide and shallow, when ideally perhaps, a sump should be tall and narrow. This is an unavoidable compromise, which could result in oil surge, but for the advanced design of the Raceline sump pan with its extensive baffling and built-in windage tray, meaning that oil surge is practically eliminated. However, it does mean that the oil level in the sump is critical. The sump holds a full five litres, and we recommend that owners recalibrate the oil dipstick to suit their particular vehicle installation.)

It also states that the sump holds 5 litres so is the new mark below or above the original mark on the dipstick? if it's below there's not a problem as it could be to keep the oil level below the built in windage tray, if it's above then it's a no no and the original mark should be used.

 

Les

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  • 3 years later...
Guest boggie

To back up all this theory: My ex-wife's 4year old Fiesta started sounding very rough so she took it to Ford. They found the oil level was too high (only about a litre too much they guessed) and due to the crank shaft whipping up the oil into a foam the engine was a write-off. Turns out she topped up the oil a couple of weeks earlier and "made sure it was above the marks" .....

 

B

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Guest 2b cruising

If you dipstick does not go all the way in, it could be hitting the bottom of the sump.

If this is the case using it as standard could overfill the sump leading to definately engine failure.

If this is the case, cut the same amount of the totem of the stick as there is excess at the top.

Other than that, the same as all the sensible ones have said, use the standard dipstick.

This is not showing the quantity or capacity of oil but the height of the recommended reservoir level.

It is possible if the engine is well over filled, the vibration could be so bad it could shake your engine to bits.

Hitting a liquid at speed is like hitting a brick wall.

 

Your starter fault seems to me as a lazy or underpowered starter motor.

It would strain even when the engine is warm if it was something like a loose lead ect.

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  • 6 years later...
On 1/5/2012 at 10:46 PM, Big Jim said:

Iggy, you're completely wrong!

Shortening the sump should make no difference to where the level of oil comes to. It will only make a difference to the amount of oil needed to bring it to the dipstick level after draining the sump however.

 

Shortening the sump is to give more clearance over the Great British sleeping policeman and his friends.

This will obviously reduce the amount of oil in the "reservoir" but by adding an extension to the side/front of the shortened sump you will regain some of that lost amount.

 

The dipstick measures the top level of the oil, it's Maximum mark is the top most level that you should fill up to, leaving enough room for the crankshaft and journals to wizz around at 000's of revs without coming into contact with the oil in the sump pan.

Change that level higher and you risk the crankshaft & con-rod bits splashing nicely around in the oil, quickly whipping it up to a nice froth which will do you engine not a lot of good quick style!

 

Use the standard dipstick just as it was, do not shorten it or remark it, bring the oil level to the top mark, don't go over it. job done.

That is exactly correct. It's a very common misconception that the oil level should change, it doesn't. A dipstick tells you the oil LEVEL not the quantity of oil!

Edited by Asbo Steve
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