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Newbie Questions On Gbs Zero


nelmo

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Guest Chappie

Hi Nelmo

 

I have recently started my build, not too far from you in Woking, and I pretty much had the same requirements as you. I decided to buy a complete kit from GBS (although "complete" is a vague term as I keep finding I don't have little bits I need) and I wanted to get it in one go (the factory is a bit of a trek and kit-car suppliers have a history of going bankrupt mid-build). I also didn't want to strip a donor for similar reasons as yourself so I got GBS to source and strip one for me, although as my confidence with the spanner has increased since I started I probably wouldn't do this again. I also initially informed she-who-must-be-obeyed of a build price of £12k, but little additions (powder-coating, lowered floor, sport wings, full weather gear, floor mats, nicer grill, decent tyres etc), kid-in-a-sweet-shop tendencies (ATR suspension, Emerald ECU, cobra hoops, rear diffuser, nice steering wheel with quick-release boss etc) and all the other bits I didn't think of means that my build is currently sitting at £14.5k. This doesn't include the extra tools I bought and consumables I will inevitably need.

 

When it came to the donor parts, GBS charged me for the cost of the car and the workshop time taken to strip them, which I thought was very reasonable. There isn't anything they do to the engine, it's literally ripped out, stuck on a pallet and handed to you.

 

In the time that has passed since I began this project, my knowledge of the process and the industry has increased substantially and if I started again from this point I may well have done things differently and more cost-effectively. I did do plenty of research, however, my opinion was that if I spent ages reading the whole internet, trying to know everything before I started, I would never actually get started (lack of patience was also an issue), so I placed my order and handed over all my money.

 

All I have to do now is save for the upgrades I'll most likely want once it's on the road!

 

Chappie

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Thanks Chappie - coincidentally, I went up to GBS (and Tiger) today - very interesting.

 

I got the grand tour of GBS from Wayne - a very good salesman and he then scared the **** out of me in their demo car! Before the visit, I was less likely to go for the GBS because the Mazda kit required a donor and i wasn't keen on doing that myself. But, as you say, Wayne said they could do all that for me - about £1k to buy, strip and refurb all the bits I'd need. That has thrown the cat among the pigeons....

 

However, and it's a biggie IMO, for about the same price as the GBS with a 10 year old, 80k mile, 130 bhp Mazda engine, I can have a Tiger with a brand new, 160bhp Zetec engine. I much prefer the ally bodywork on the GBS but is that enough to compensate? I'm really not sure....

 

The GBS premises is much larger and more professional looking than Tiger but I liked both sets of staff and Tiger seem to provide a slightly better service, going by build blogs and other comments on here.

Edited by nelmo
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Just to throw another thing to get you thinking - my MX5 engine has around 120k miles from 1990 and still goes strong. Sat for about 3 months in a barn and once fuel got flowing, started up no problems. These engines were built to last :)

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These engines were built for BOOST :crazy:

 

Edited for accuracy 8)

 

 

On a serious note, thats a hell of a lot of money for a Zero! Also, Tiger have been around since the Dinosaurs, so I wouldnt be concerned buying from them. Personally, I would buy from the company who I felt were going to be able to offer me the support and service I wanted.

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Guest alfaGTA

Few things to note quickly;

 

A new zetec will be new old stock-how long has it sat in storage? 10 years?

 

Personally if I was building "brand new" I would be going ford duratec/mazda MZR engine with the mazda N7 rwd gearbox....

 

 

Nothing wrong with the zetec engine MT75 gearbox as such but dated now....

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Guest alfaGTA

In addition; what are the costs involved in turning a FWD zetec to RWD format?

 

Mx5 has everything already laid out in RWD format; inlet manifold, water pump, alternator, clutch, starter, flywheel, sump... These costs are significant in the parts alone but also the sundry costs of silicone hoses, nuts bolts etc etc.

 

On a power front the 1.8 130 bhp can be increased to 150 with relative ease, 230bhp with forced induction!

 

Power is relative, my MK indy with a 110bhp pig iron pinto passed 170bhp zetec powered zero's on trackdays (though I am Irish and driving fast is natural). Handling and overall weight are big factors.

 

Still some costing to do....

 

I still believe breaking a donor car will get you into the swing of building a car, my MX5 Mk1 has a much smaller foot print than the MK indy if space is an issue (the shell and all the crap will be gone before your shiny kit arrives).

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You would be surprised (or not) how quickly it all adds up; get trigger happy on ebay/motor parts places for this & that, new here/there etc...

 

I have a spreadsheet of parts on the original build, lots of rows with £7-12, and obv. a fair few larger items, adds up to big numbers by the end.

 

 

My 'new' engine was built circa 2004, 10 years is a about right...

 

Oh I know about ti adding up quick, I can tell you to the penny what my build has cost. I also remember not that long ago pricing up with another manufacturer who does supply a complete kit in a box, everything you need to get on the road, and it was under £10k and arguably a better kit.

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As said, a "new" crate Zetec will actually be from circa 2004 and will cost around £900. Add to that the cost of a gearbox, diff and driveshafts (circa £400 to £500) and you are at the cost of the stripped out MX5 and some. Then add the cost of wiring looms, ECU etc and you could add another £1000.

 

If you were up for stripping the car, you could recoup a lot of the cost by selling the parts you don't want.

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Guest davidm

Sorry I can’t give info about a Mazda-based, ‘cos I don’t know anything about them, apart from the fact that they’ve got a good reputation for component & build quality. So here’s my experiences based solely on going the Ford route.

I went to a scrappie for my Sierra donor parts, but it was a lobour-intensive, cold, wet and messy job. Wouldn’t do it again. There again, I wouldn’t buy GBS refurbed parts either, given how easy it is to do. What I would do is buy the stuff unrefurbed from GBS, and do the refurbing myself for what’s involved.

Engines... depends whether you want old or new. Yes, I believe the Mazda lump to be pretty bulletproof, but so is the Zetec. As for Pintos, I’ve had a few in my time, but I wouldn’t want another.

I’d be wary about the £1K price for refurbed Mazda parts. Diff, gearbox & front hubs alone for the Ford are £1600 from GBS – and that’s without the engine, drive shafts & steering column. Be a good idea to find out exactly what it is they’re supplying.

Ally bodywork. Options are to paint it, wrap it (which is what I did), or spend the rest of your life polishing it. I started off going down the polishing route & tried everything imaginable to clean it. After at least 10 attempts on the rear panel, far from being a mirror finish, it was as dull as anything, patchy, & the oxidation was still coming off in sheets. At that point I gave up.

I didn’t find the panels that had to be folded particularly easy to fit either. Things didn’t line up as they were supposed to, and there was an awful lot of fettling needed doing (not my strongest point!). Give me a single GRP tub any time.

Apart from chopping away a few bits of webbing, there’s nothing else really needs doing to ‘convert’ a Zetec to RWD. Just remember not to bolt it in sideways! You’ll have to throw away both manifolds, but you’d want to do that anyway. Then all you have to add to complete the crate engine is an alternator & starter motor.

The warnings about the cost of the small bits are oh so true! There are shed loads of them & costs really can spiral horribly if you’re not careful.

Another area that can hit hard is if you go for an aftermarket ECU & throttle bodies. This lot is going to cost you about £2500 by the time you’ve added in a rolling road session. You can always go that route eventually, but for starters why not stick with the TB that comes with the engine, a plenum chamber & the standard Ford ECU? £500 top whack for the lot. That price will make SWMBO very happy! OK, I know you won’t get the same power because the Ford ECU isn’t mappable, but do you really need it on day 1? You’ll get a lot more than the stock 130bhp even with this setup, because you won’t have the restrictive Ford manifolds & cat strangling the life out of the engine.

Another thing to watch is stuff from other suppliers. Not doubting quality, but... a short sump for nearly £500 compared with say £100 to get someone to chop the one you’ve already got? A water rail? Do you really need one?

So it goes on with things like fancy air filters, shiny chrome bits here and there, etc etc.

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Thanks all - interesting points...

 

GBS basically will take any MX5 you give them and strip it down (for one days labour=£250), refurbing the bits you need for the kit. I gave the price of £1k because they had just bought a V reg MX5 for a customer that cost £850. The refurb cost is included in the main kit price. So I guess if you could get hold of an MX5 for £50, you're laughing....

 

Even if the 'new' Zetec is 10 years old, thats still much newer than a 15 year old MX5 engine and, obviously, it hasn't had the stress of 100k miles. Doesn't matter how bulletproof an engine is, you cannae change the Laws of Physics, Jim... ;)

 

Basically, for the same money, I get a kit with a 10 year old, zero mileage, 160bhp engine or a kit with a 15 year old, 100k miler, 130bhp - no brainer, surely?

 

Note that the cost of both kits supposedly includes 'everything'...required modifications, TBs, all parts refurbed etc, etc.

 

Sorry but I'm not up for stripping my own donor - this is supposed to be a fun project and that doesn't sound like fun to me :)

Edited by nelmo
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Careful on that one... recommend a contingency fund for the various bits/bobs/extras along the way, my complete kit also required the stuff on the http://richards-gbs-...uk/p/parts.html (granted lots are optional, but there were some basics in there too)

 

Just go in with eyes open

 

Yeah, I know, thats why I used quotes :)

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Guest ali2992

While throttle bodies and aftermarket ecu could cost you £2500 it could also cost you much less than that. It just depends on how you go about it. Also I'd be very careful with the £250 stripping cost, that's assuming they get it done in a day, even in a fully equipped workshop I would have thought that unlikely. And if it is in a day, then it would be only the vital running gear needed. But often the small things off the donor are just as useful. Little bits of hose, scrap pieces of metal, there's loads. If you can grab everything off the donor, no matter who strips it down

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You'll be glad to hear, Richard, that I've read your entire blog from start to finish, including those videos :clapping:

I meant to ask - do you think the heater was worth it? Does it work well?

 

Every time i asked about a heater at Tiger and GBS, they all laughed...

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