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Brake Upgrade Options & Ideas


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OK Kids, I have a Robin Hood 2B based on a Sierra 1.6.

Now it's has plenty of poke with a 3.0 V6 but won't stop.

 

Meantime to get it thru the MOT I will need to replace a few bits and bleed the braking system on the drums (leaky cylinders etc.)

But I think the measly 1.6 drums and disks are not up to the task of stopping the beast of Brum when a granny steps out at the crossing. :crazy:

 

Front Brakes:

So I'm asking for options for upgrading the front brakes and recommendation of where to purchase.

Example - (Wilwoods 4 pot etc....) which do not break the bank balance.

 

Can I just purchase bigger Cosworth/4x4/2.0 front brake disks (from auction site) and calipers and replace the 1.6 versions. :sorry:

 

 

Rear Brakes:

Well after opening up the rear brakes on the new kit last night and comparing them to my older 2.0 based kit I noticed the drums are far smaller.

During the sorn period It might be an opportune time to upgrade the rear brakes.

 

What are my options?

Can I just swap the 1.6ltr drums to 2.0ltr drums

Or should I upgrade to rear disks and calipers as I have to remove the old worn out/small drums?

 

 

 

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what is your problem? Is it just that the unservoed brakes feel too firm, or are you getting brake fade?

 

Brake upgrades can fix brake fade but is an expensive method of reducing pedal effort. What master cylinder have you got? If you have a sierra setup, you may be best swapping to a smaller diameter m/c, or fitting floor mounted pedals and twin master cylinders of the right size.

Edited by Grim
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I think the standard 2.0 brake disks are bigger than the 1.6.

You can buy a new pair of vented 2.0 disks from ECP for £30 ish....I just did that using their latest discount code...

http://www.eurocarparts.com/brake-discs

You will also need 2.0 calipers & pads. ECP liist the calipers, but you also need the carrier & sliding mechanism. (Ebay?)

You can fit the larger dia. rear brakes (backplate, brake cylinder & handbrake mechanism & the hub itself)

but they may be harder to find.

& may not be necessary....

Using Ford parts should be far cheaper than any aftermarket system.

But both of these will do the job...but you will probably need a new M/C too

http://www.rallydesign.co.uk/product_info.php?products_id=10508

http://www.rallydesign.co.uk/product_info.php?products_id=14504

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Guest mower man

I uprated my s7 ,because the original single piston calipers were crap! ok i spent a few quid but at the time Hi-Spec were doing alloy 4 pots and 265 mm vent discs for around 300 quid and a couple of stainless flexies for the front ,a rebuild on the rears the bigger ones [9 inch]cured it nicely . This was few years ago and prices will have changed , I didn't track the car but it got used fairly hard and there were no probs do some research HiSpec are or were cheaper than Wilwoods or AP racing but are in my mind just as good !! mick :acute:

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Hi Spec have latched onto the max power brigade.

They only do a really big disk conversion thats around a grand now

http://www.hispecmotorsport.co.uk/page97.html

 

But they may well be worth a call to see if they can supply anything else.

Edited by Bob Tucker
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My old S7 was 1.6 based, replaced rear drums for bigger 2litre versions along with engine but kept the solid front disks. I didn't have any issues with this set up I think for the weight of car the smaller front disks were plenty good enough.

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Ford thought the original fitment brakes were OK for a 1.6 sierra and presumably thousands of 1.6 sierras passed their MoTs over the years on brake rollers in garages over the years. So the system should be up to the job of stopping a car less than half that weight. A lot can be done by making sure the current setup is fully serviceable and decent pads/shoes are being used. Upgrading to 2 litre front setup should also offer a route to more stopping power. Shoes/pads of Mintex M1144 material are the final step. (Or they were for me although I do have twin master cylinder pedal box with bias bar.)

 

Nigel

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Guest mower man

The hi specs I fitted were nothing like the ones shown in attachments above ! they are serious race/ comp kit and would be completely out of place on the vehicles we are discussing , the one used did have dust seals and were completetly reliable over the 20,000 miles i put on them . They have wide range of models [or did have ] and tech service /enquiries were very help full ,Do your research carefully !! mick

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Guest 2b cruising

Hello mate.

Whatever you do to the rears you must do to the fronts, or visa versa.

Study what way you want to go first, 2 ltr, 4x4, or the very expensive four pot 2 pot way.

I have spare 4x4 complete 10" rear system going spare and will have a spare 2ltr full front and rear system but not until I have done my

winter mods.

I am also pretty sure I have spare 2 ltr front and rear unused solid discs if you want them.

Fitting a smaller master cylinder will be just like changing down a gear on a hill. It will give you greater braking effort both front and rear even if you keep the rest off the system you currently have.

Going without servo is always quite hairy to start with but 1600 brakes will not help one bit.

As long as your brake pedal is solid, you should still pull enough effort to pass mot in your lightweight car, but long term you will be better off changing them.

I also have a spare 7.5 inch open diff 3.62 ratio bolt on shafts if you want it but I doubt you will have bolt on shafts on 1.6 rear end so it would not be an easy straight swap.

Just pm what you would like and it's yours without cost.

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I think we need to understand Dino's issue here. "It won't stop" doesn't really tell us enough.

 

Assuming that we can take the actual grip levels out of the equation (so let's assume tyres are good/grippy, road surface is good and so forth)...

 

1) No matter how hard he stands on the pedal, the car can't lock a wheel

2) He can lock a wheel, but it's not the end he prefers

3) He's driving it so hard that the brake performance degrades after some use ie. it doesn't maintain the levels of performance he requires

 

1 and 2 could be knackered discs/glazed pads, air in the system, bad fluid, a number of things - but assuming everything is in tip-top condition, 1 is more likely an issue of master/slave cylinder ratios; throwing big brakes on it *might* sort it by a roundabout way, but the extra size of larger calipers/discs isn't the fix per se and might just be adding unsprung mass where you just don't need it.

 

3 is more about upgrading the bits to deliver better performance, which could just be down to better pads, discs of a higher frictional grade, and/or larger calipers.

 

I doubt upgrading the back brakes alone is the way forward; last thing you probably need are more brakes on the rear. Unless you're autotesting or drifting I suspect you'd rather have the front lock up first rather than the back ;)

Edited by brumster
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My sierra 1.6 i think must have been last of the line (1991) and had vented front discs not sure if the rear drums were the bigger ones or not. I don't have a huge amount of power (actually very little as i am down on compression on one cylinder - another story) but i can lock the wheels pretty easy if i want.

 

I'd be careful not to overbrake your car. As above these cars are much lighter than the original cars so even the standard brakes are 'uprated' for what we are using them for.

 

I did read that some people were having problems getting enough heat into the performance pads as the cars are so much lighter. Are you running a performance pad?

 

as an aside Ford must think that drums still do the job as my GF's parents both have new fords running rear drums and both are big-ish cars

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what is your problem? Is it just that the unservoed brakes feel too firm, or are you getting brake fade?

 

Brake upgrades can fix brake fade but is an expensive method of reducing pedal effort. What master cylinder have you got? If you have a sierra setup, you may be best swapping to a smaller diameter m/c, or fitting floor mounted pedals and twin master cylinders of the right size.

 

Grim, my good friend.

 

It all stems from the MOT and front and rear brakes not being up to scratch for the 240bhp engine.

The tester failed the car and recommended I upgrade to better brakes or at least fix the problem with the rear drums not working....(leaking cylinder).

 

So to get it thru the MOT I was going to clean the drums, replace both cylinders and bleed system as the springs, shoes etc. are still very good and were updated in 2013.

 

No matter how hard I hit the brakes it will not lock up (which I would expect when intentionally trying too) and not very responsive compared to the rest of the car.

Nikki and myself are very happy with the firm feeling (ooeer missus) and this is not an issue, not even had enough road time to experience brake fade from heat.

But my 2 tonne 4x4 is more responsive and that takes a lot of effort to slow down, and this is a quarter of the weight and takes a lot longer to stop with effort.

 

No Servo, but brake set-up looks like this:

post-12997-0-71993400-1465907133_thumb.jpg

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Dino's car has a twin master cylinder and bias bar set up, I know because I helped Dave bleed them and the clutch through. I did think at the time that the pedal could have done with being longer from the pedal to the pivot fulcrum to give a bit more return for the effort you applied to the pedal.

That may not be the issue at all but I run slightly more power and torque than Dino and have the standard sierra set up, no servo, westfield tandem master cylinder and it brakes fine, locking up the front when too much pressure is applied. I have found that the most important part of the braking is the bit you do in your head, ie leave a bit more room, only give it the beans when it's appropriate.

As far as I'm concerned the weak part in my braking process is the grip from the tyres which let go before the brakes reach their limit.

 

There is a budget bigger front brake set up available utilising fiesta st front calipers which allow the fitment of 278mm discs, there are none of these with the correct offset but sierra cosworth 283mm discs that Richard says he can turn down will fit inconjunction with 3mm spacers between the calipers and the hub carrier

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ah, looks like a good setup. Doesn't look like it should have a problem, without the leaks. Do you know the diameter of the master cylinders?

 

Do you have a very long pedal when braking? leaking cylinders will limit the amount of pressure applied and give a long pedal.

 

Are the rear shoes contaminated with fluid? Self explanatory problem!

Edited by Grim
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