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1st time turn over


zhap135

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On 4/24/2020 at 11:49 AM, richyb66 said:

Unbolt the earth lead between the engine and the chassis and give the clamping surfaces a good clean, then refit it. The power to the starter motor needs a good return path. 

Thanks Richy, have done this and this has made a made an improvement, although still struggling. Still it clearly needed doing, thanks for the tip

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On 4/24/2020 at 3:24 AM, maca said:

Try removing spark plugs and crank over it could be you have a tired starter motor that needs attention.

 

On 4/24/2020 at 2:03 PM, Dave Ed said:

I had a similar problem a few years ago. I renewed all of the earths, cranked the engine without the plugs, boosted the battery but it was only when I fitted a new starter motor that she fired up without labouring. 

 

On 4/24/2020 at 8:54 AM, MarkBzero said:

Try bench testing your starter.

 

Gents thanks so much for your responses.

Starter was bench tested yesterday. It seems to spin freely, though I cannot be sure of the speed or actual turning moment produced. Once engaged it seems to take a second or two to reach full speed. 

After cleaning the mating surfaces and refitting there is a slight improvement, however it still struggles to turn more than a couple of revs in a row.

Dave, you mentioned that you had a similar issue, may I ask whether you bench tested the unit before replacing, and did it seem to spin when not under load?

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Yeah I bench tested it to a degree. I didn’t have a vice or work bench so was doing it whilst pinning it down with my foot. I couldn’t be sure as to the rpm or efficiency so I just bit the bullet and bought a new one for about £40 off of eBay. It fixed the problem. 

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The starter gear needs to be under load to check if the starter has any power to turn under load.

If you can clamp in a vise then hold a piece of wood on the gear and apply pressure to the gear.

If it is at all sluggish then the starter is failing and sometimes cheaper to replace than having repaired.

Edited by maca
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On 4/23/2020 at 10:25 PM, fry61 said:

Measure the voltage across the battery when cranking ( a minimum of 11 volts I would suggest is O.K ) or ask a friend with jump leads to connect his battery in parallel with yours while cranking ( keep his engine running at a fast idle.

Hello Fry. I did as you suggested, thanks,.The voltage drops to about 9 when starting, either from the battery or when jump starting from a running engine.  I'm going to try bench testing under load to see if I can replicate the same drop. I'm thinking that if I do, it might indicate that the issue with the SM itself (and not my shonky wiring)

Edited by zhap135
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 With a good battery in parallel with a running car I would have hoped for a higher voltage.

Only problem is bench test will not be on load, free spinning will only draw a fraction of the current & may not show faulty internals.

While on the bench though, try connecting direct to the motor ( by-pass the solenoid ) Have found several times in the past that its burnt contacts in the solenoid giving the trouble, depends on solenoid type its fairly easy to strip down & clean the contacts, give a light lub. & remove all the wear debris.

My wife has just brought another coffee in & suggests " Hit it with a Big Hammer"  --- has been known to cure a lot of car ills, its how we got home from Spain one year when Florin's injector pump played silly beggars.  

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On 4/24/2020 at 10:04 AM, RevKev said:

Hi

 

Assuming that your Pinto ran nicely before you left it in the garage for a few years I can see no reason why your ignition timing would change just sitting in the garage.  But it's quite possible that connections get corroded so check them.  Quite possible that the copper tracks in the starter motor have corroded and bench testing will help get them cleaned up just by running the motor.

I also consider that the starter on your Pinto draws 100 + amps when staring and a 22ah battery just can't sustain that for any length of time or perhaps even deliver that at all.  Wherever your Pinto originated from it was attached to a 70ah battery.

I can say that the project I'm working on now also has a Pinto and the starter on that failed after sitting for 15 years in a garage.  Even after refurb it was useless.  A new geared starter does the job nicely on a 40ah battery.

 

Kevin

Hi Kevin, thanks very much for the response, they're really good things to check. The bench test and cleaning of contacts etc seemed to improve things slightly, but it's still struggling. Thanks for the tip re the small battery.

A couple of folk have said new starter motor, so I'll be looking at that soon I guess. Just want to make sure there is nothing else that may be causing this before shelling out!

Cheers

A

IT's start

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Well, lots of fun and games.

After trying to start off a running engine, and cleaning return path contacts etc, saw only slight improvement in turn over, but still dropping voltage to about 9 during cranking and labouring. Before taking the plunge and buying a new unit (although many years since last turned over, I  thought it unlikely that things had degraded that much when sitting in the dry) decided I might strip down for a clean up (the SM, not me)

Taking the armature out I found this. Don't know if you can access, but basically a brush spring had fallen off, and one of the brushes therefore was was unable  to make contact. Now, I don't know whether this was an existing issue, or it got dislodged on removal of the armature. Either way, an easy fix. Then cleaned the commutator bar up and reassembled.

Bench tested again - nothing happened. Hmm. Direct to motor, yup spins nicely (don't know about under load at this stage), but testing through the solenoid, nada

Removed the solenoid and bench tested on its own  - dead, BUT clearly drawing current. Stopped bench testing immediately.

It looks like the solenoid is a sealed unit, and I can't see that I can strip it down further - what's more I don't think they are available as separates with this model. 

I wonder of anyone has come across this in particular and can shed some light?

Cheers

A

 

 

 

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On 4/26/2020 at 10:08 AM, maca said:

The starter gear needs to be under load to check if the starter has any power to turn under load.

If you can clamp in a vise then hold a piece of wood on the gear and apply pressure to the gear.

If it is at all sluggish then the starter is failing and sometimes cheaper to replace than having repaired.

Thanks Maca, this route is looking more likely by the day!

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On 4/26/2020 at 2:00 PM, fry61 said:

 With a good battery in parallel with a running car I would have hoped for a higher voltage.

Only problem is bench test will not be on load, free spinning will only draw a fraction of the current & may not show faulty internals.

While on the bench though, try connecting direct to the motor ( by-pass the solenoid ) Have found several times in the past that its burnt contacts in the solenoid giving the trouble, depends on solenoid type its fairly easy to strip down & clean the contacts, give a light lub. & remove all the wear debris.

My wife has just brought another coffee in & suggests " Hit it with a Big Hammer"  --- has been known to cure a lot of car ills, its how we got home from Spain one year when Florin's injector pump played silly beggars.  

Thanks Fry, lots of fun and games over the weekend (see latest post) Haven't had the guts to use your wife's solution yet, but have been sorely tempted!

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26 minutes ago, zhap135 said:

Well, lots of fun and games.

After trying to start off a running engine, and cleaning return path contacts etc, saw only slight improvement in turn over, but still dropping voltage to about 9 during cranking and labouring. Before taking the plunge and buying a new unit (although many years since last turned over, I  thought it unlikely that things had degraded that much when sitting in the dry) decided I might strip down for a clean up (the SM, not me)

Taking the armature out I found this. Don't know if you can access, but basically a brush spring had fallen off, and one of the brushes therefore was was unable  to make contact. Now, I don't know whether this was an existing issue, or it got dislodged on removal of the armature. Either way, an easy fix. Then cleaned the commutator bar up and reassembled.

Bench tested again - nothing happened. Hmm. Direct to motor, yup spins nicely (don't know about under load at this stage), but testing through the solenoid, nada

Removed the solenoid and bench tested on its own  - dead, BUT clearly drawing current. Stopped bench testing immediately.

It looks like the solenoid is a sealed unit, and I can't see that I can strip it down further - what's more I don't think they are available as separates with this model. 

I wonder of anyone has come across this in particular and can shed some light?

Cheers

A

 

 

 

There is some activity in the solenoid, but very weak, and needs assistance to engage. Is there ea way of unsticking it?

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Looking at the picture I would say it requires a good clean and a brush pack also if the solenoidis sticking then would be better to replace it.

I think that you would be better to invest in a new unit and have a 12 month warranty than attempting to repair and have it let you down again.

Regards Martin

PS. If you join the club you can get a good discount from Europarts,

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The missing brush spring & all that crap will be a major part of your trouble.

It is possible to strip, clean & re-assemble the solenoid ( can't say for certain if yours would ) but if you decide the present one is duff what is there to loose --- just an hour or two of time -- which most of us have a'plenty at present.

Just ensure you un-solder the solenoid coil wire ( on the outside of the unit ) before opening the metal can.

Touching wood/rabbits feet & such like. I stripped & rebuilt Florin's solenoid several years ago & no trouble since.

What Maca says above is true, but where is your sense of adventure -- it's not rocket science --- just a big relay.

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13 hours ago, maca said:

Looking at the picture I would say it requires a good clean and a brush pack also if the solenoidis sticking then would be better to replace it.

I think that you would be better to invest in a new unit and have a 12 month warranty than attempting to repair and have it let you down again.

Regards Martin

PS. If you join the club you can get a good discount from Europarts,

That would certainly be the sensible/sane thing to do, but where's the fun?😆.  It'll have to happen at some point I guess, on the other hand I learnt a load getting this far. Even if I do buy new I can learn a bit more about solenoids - it's not like I can break it any more than it is already (famous last words...)

Thanks for the tip about membership, I really need to do that anyway.

10 hours ago, fry61 said:

The missing brush spring & all that crap will be a major part of your trouble.

It is possible to strip, clean & re-assemble the solenoid ( can't say for certain if yours would ) but if you decide the present one is duff what is there to loose --- just an hour or two of time -- which most of us have a'plenty at present.

Just ensure you un-solder the solenoid coil wire ( on the outside of the unit ) before opening the metal can.

Touching wood/rabbits feet & such like. I stripped & rebuilt Florin's solenoid several years ago & no trouble since.

What Maca says above is true, but where is your sense of adventure -- it's not rocket science --- just a big relay.

Yeah, maybe, I'm not sure that it happened previous to strip down or was dislodged as I removed the armature. I was able to retrieve the spring and re-assemble without any real difficulty.

The solenoid looks like a sealed unit - I can't see any fixings/bolts/screws. It is tempting to squirt a dob of GT85 in and see what happens, but I'm wary until I know more about the unit. The solenoid worked before I removed it, although I didn't pay much attention to how well. In any case I can't for the life of me see that I did anything to it to break it. The piston is sticky, and doesn't move easily. When voltage is applied it will move but only when physically assisted by me.

I'm going to try and strip it down - everyday's a skool day!

Cheers guys for your interest, help and advice so far, wouldn't have got thsi far without any of the comments in this thread! Will keep you updated!

A

Edited by zhap135
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6 hours ago, zhap135 said:

That would certainly be the sensible/sane thing to do, but where's the fun?😆

😃 good, positive attitude BUT you may not be saying that when you're stuck on the side of the B523 ... in the pouring rain .... with no phone signal 🤣

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