zhap135

18 hours ago, blue said:

Ok when you say ign do you mean non start as you say you have sparks when cranking.  
simple thing is carb /brake cleaner /easy start. 
spray down the carb if you get moment start start looking at fuel side of things.  
pls let us know how you get on. 
like most of these things all the clues are there you just need to find them. 

Thanks Blue

Yes, I mean not starting but getting sparks. Have removed one spark plug and earthed it and can see sparks on cranking (although I haven't tested all 4)

Brake cleaner - just simple Holts or similar?  The fuel seems to be getting into the cylinders as the spark plugs are "wet"

Next 2 things that I'm going to do -

• make sure that spark occurs on the compression stroke (rather than the exhaust stroke - I presume that it only sparks every other cycle on a four stroke)
• refresh the petrol - it's been in the tank for a while. Luckily there's not much there

Hi Blue, thanks. I'm actually using segments of the original wiring. As it happens I was just studying the haynes wiring diagram, and found the black lead from the EIM (sorry referred to it as the ESC Ig mod above) and traced it back through the harness. I attached this to the appropriate terminal on the box for the coil, and hey presto I now have sparks when cranking! Simple error on my part, but feels good.

Now, still not getting ignition. I believe that I have the plugs in the correct order, BUT the next thing I want to rule out is that they're actually firing at the correct point in the cycle - preferably without striping a load of stuff down.

This is a continuation of my earlier post about starting a 1.6 pinto that has been languishing for some time

Loads of folk pitched in with advice and help last time which was so useful. I couldn't salvage the Starter unfortunately so bought a new (cheapy) one, which is now cranking nicely.

Next bit, no spark. I've removed a spark plug and earthed it and there is no spark produced whilt cranking

Working backward, the terminals for the coil aren't receiving any juice. Now for the complex bit. I've replaced the fuse box with a 12 mod unit form CBS, which seems to work fine whilst bench testing, BUT there is a terminal on the box for the coil which is currently unused - in this engine (which is an early 1.6) the dizzy and coil seem to get their power feed from the ESC ign module, which in turn seems to get it straight from the ignition switch (in the Ford wiring). Unless I'm missing something.

I know that this is a difficult one to answer straight out without anyone knowing my set up, unless anyone has used a CBS box and come across this problem. any ideas?

On 4/29/2020 at 11:04 PM, fry61 said:

The contacts are badly pitted, need filing flat with a single cut file & what else ??  You gave it a go & can't get a good result but at least you tried.

( Brain surgery by this method is not recommended.)

Have replaced the SM. Works a treat, so now I'm working on getting engine to fire.

Thanks for all your help mate

A

Of course! I saw them as clean, but you're right they're also very rough. I suppose the pitting is caused by a combination of impact and arcing, and may well have impeded the current to the starter. Only makes it more frustrating that I can't identify the fault in the s'noid, and why it seemed to manifest itself only after refitting. hohum!

But you're right, we gave it a good go, and even learned a load, so certainly not a waste of time. However, I'll definitely lay off the brain surgery for a while!

Thanks for all your interest Fry, your input has been absolutely invaluable.

Cheers

A

9 hours ago, fry61 said:

It is possible to open the crimp, small chisel & pliers BUT be sure to un-solder the coil terminal first.

A smear of silicon around the joint on re-assembly.  

New starter purchased ? Then cut the solenoid apart any-ways, may prove/disprove all above; will be interesting to know.

Yeah, 'm going to have to replace I think, I'm flogging a dead horse

The solenoid moves freely, with only the resistance of the return spring impeding the travel, and when a voltage is applied it needs my assistance to moves,so it seems that it can't overcome the return spring. I took it apart to see what I could see. See images here, here and here. On the whole the internals look fine, but the coil isn't producing the oomph to get things moving.

I've stripped it as far as I can I think. Any further investigation would need to be proper destructive  - might have a look another time. 

What's a mystery is that it seemed to work until I stripped the SM down, but I can't for the life of me see if/what I did to break it. All I can assume is that the magnetic coil itself was  on the way out(I don't know how well it was working - it might have been only just well enough to engage) and happened to give up at this time with all the testing I was doing.

10 hours ago, fry61 said:

And don't use the B352 when raining.

LOL, although there is a nice looking pub round the corner on the 307 to wait it out!

1 hour ago, Kerry said:

If the bushes have worn in the starter motor, when it engages into the ring gear the rotor in the motor is forced against the field coils causing it to stall, this would not be obvious during bench testing.

Thanks Kerry, that makes sense (when you say bushes I understand that you're referring to the plain bearings holding the armature). It's not exactly a silent run when bench testing, although no alarming noises. Is this something that is realistic to repair in your opinion?

Well, I may finally have to admit defeat. 

Having used a bit of lube to free up the solenoid, which now moves much more freely, there is still little action. When a voltage is applied, current flows, but the s'noid needs assistance to move.

The unit itself looks like a sealed unit with no possibility to strip. the housing is in a cup shape at the actuator end, and seems to have been crimped at the terminal end. Not sure really where to go from here. I haven't been able to track down a separate s'noid, so it might be a new starter after all. 

For anyone who reads this that commented, everyone's input was really useful, thanks all!

1 hour ago, nelmo said:

 good, positive attitude BUT you may not be saying that when you're stuck on the side of the B523 ... in the pouring rain .... with no phone signal 

Better take a brolly with me then!

13 hours ago, maca said:

Looking at the picture I would say it requires a good clean and a brush pack also if the solenoidis sticking then would be better to replace it.

I think that you would be better to invest in a new unit and have a 12 month warranty than attempting to repair and have it let you down again.

Regards Martin

PS. If you join the club you can get a good discount from Europarts,

That would certainly be the sensible/sane thing to do, but where's the fun?.  It'll have to happen at some point I guess, on the other hand I learnt a load getting this far. Even if I do buy new I can learn a bit more about solenoids - it's not like I can break it any more than it is already (famous last words...)

Thanks for the tip about membership, I really need to do that anyway.

10 hours ago, fry61 said:

The missing brush spring & all that crap will be a major part of your trouble.

It is possible to strip, clean & re-assemble the solenoid ( can't say for certain if yours would ) but if you decide the present one is duff what is there to loose --- just an hour or two of time -- which most of us have a'plenty at present.

Just ensure you un-solder the solenoid coil wire ( on the outside of the unit ) before opening the metal can.

Touching wood/rabbits feet & such like. I stripped & rebuilt Florin's solenoid several years ago & no trouble since.

What Maca says above is true, but where is your sense of adventure -- it's not rocket science --- just a big relay.

Yeah, maybe, I'm not sure that it happened previous to strip down or was dislodged as I removed the armature. I was able to retrieve the spring and re-assemble without any real difficulty.

The solenoid looks like a sealed unit - I can't see any fixings/bolts/screws. It is tempting to squirt a dob of GT85 in and see what happens, but I'm wary until I know more about the unit. The solenoid worked before I removed it, although I didn't pay much attention to how well. In any case I can't for the life of me see that I did anything to it to break it. The piston is sticky, and doesn't move easily. When voltage is applied it will move but only when physically assisted by me.

I'm going to try and strip it down - everyday's a skool day!

Cheers guys for your interest, help and advice so far, wouldn't have got thsi far without any of the comments in this thread! Will keep you updated!

A

26 minutes ago, zhap135 said:

Well, lots of fun and games.

After trying to start off a running engine, and cleaning return path contacts etc, saw only slight improvement in turn over, but still dropping voltage to about 9 during cranking and labouring. Before taking the plunge and buying a new unit (although many years since last turned over, I  thought it unlikely that things had degraded that much when sitting in the dry) decided I might strip down for a clean up (the SM, not me)

Taking the armature out I found this. Don't know if you can access, but basically a brush spring had fallen off, and one of the brushes therefore was was unable  to make contact. Now, I don't know whether this was an existing issue, or it got dislodged on removal of the armature. Either way, an easy fix. Then cleaned the commutator bar up and reassembled.

Bench tested again - nothing happened. Hmm. Direct to motor, yup spins nicely (don't know about under load at this stage), but testing through the solenoid, nada

Removed the solenoid and bench tested on its own  - dead, BUT clearly drawing current. Stopped bench testing immediately.

It looks like the solenoid is a sealed unit, and I can't see that I can strip it down further - what's more I don't think they are available as separates with this model. 

I wonder of anyone has come across this in particular and can shed some light?

Cheers

A

 

 

 

There is some activity in the solenoid, but very weak, and needs assistance to engage. Is there ea way of unsticking it?

On 4/26/2020 at 2:00 PM, fry61 said:

 With a good battery in parallel with a running car I would have hoped for a higher voltage.

Only problem is bench test will not be on load, free spinning will only draw a fraction of the current & may not show faulty internals.

While on the bench though, try connecting direct to the motor ( by-pass the solenoid ) Have found several times in the past that its burnt contacts in the solenoid giving the trouble, depends on solenoid type its fairly easy to strip down & clean the contacts, give a light lub. & remove all the wear debris.

My wife has just brought another coffee in & suggests " Hit it with a Big Hammer"  --- has been known to cure a lot of car ills, its how we got home from Spain one year when Florin's injector pump played silly beggars.  

Thanks Fry, lots of fun and games over the weekend (see latest post) Haven't had the guts to use your wife's solution yet, but have been sorely tempted!

On 4/26/2020 at 10:08 AM, maca said:

The starter gear needs to be under load to check if the starter has any power to turn under load.

If you can clamp in a vise then hold a piece of wood on the gear and apply pressure to the gear.

If it is at all sluggish then the starter is failing and sometimes cheaper to replace than having repaired.

Thanks Maca, this route is looking more likely by the day!

Well, lots of fun and games.

After trying to start off a running engine, and cleaning return path contacts etc, saw only slight improvement in turn over, but still dropping voltage to about 9 during cranking and labouring. Before taking the plunge and buying a new unit (although many years since last turned over, I  thought it unlikely that things had degraded that much when sitting in the dry) decided I might strip down for a clean up (the SM, not me)

Taking the armature out I found this. Don't know if you can access, but basically a brush spring had fallen off, and one of the brushes therefore was was unable  to make contact. Now, I don't know whether this was an existing issue, or it got dislodged on removal of the armature. Either way, an easy fix. Then cleaned the commutator bar up and reassembled.

Bench tested again - nothing happened. Hmm. Direct to motor, yup spins nicely (don't know about under load at this stage), but testing through the solenoid, nada

Removed the solenoid and bench tested on its own  - dead, BUT clearly drawing current. Stopped bench testing immediately.

It looks like the solenoid is a sealed unit, and I can't see that I can strip it down further - what's more I don't think they are available as separates with this model. 

I wonder of anyone has come across this in particular and can shed some light?

Cheers

A

On 4/24/2020 at 10:04 AM, RevKev said:

Hi

 

Assuming that your Pinto ran nicely before you left it in the garage for a few years I can see no reason why your ignition timing would change just sitting in the garage.  But it's quite possible that connections get corroded so check them.  Quite possible that the copper tracks in the starter motor have corroded and bench testing will help get them cleaned up just by running the motor.

I also consider that the starter on your Pinto draws 100 + amps when staring and a 22ah battery just can't sustain that for any length of time or perhaps even deliver that at all.  Wherever your Pinto originated from it was attached to a 70ah battery.

I can say that the project I'm working on now also has a Pinto and the starter on that failed after sitting for 15 years in a garage.  Even after refurb it was useless.  A new geared starter does the job nicely on a 40ah battery.

 

Kevin

Hi Kevin, thanks very much for the response, they're really good things to check. The bench test and cleaning of contacts etc seemed to improve things slightly, but it's still struggling. Thanks for the tip re the small battery.

A couple of folk have said new starter motor, so I'll be looking at that soon I guess. Just want to make sure there is nothing else that may be causing this before shelling out!

Cheers

A

IT's start

On 4/23/2020 at 10:25 PM, fry61 said:

Measure the voltage across the battery when cranking ( a minimum of 11 volts I would suggest is O.K ) or ask a friend with jump leads to connect his battery in parallel with yours while cranking ( keep his engine running at a fast idle.

Hello Fry. I did as you suggested, thanks,.The voltage drops to about 9 when starting, either from the battery or when jump starting from a running engine.  I'm going to try bench testing under load to see if I can replicate the same drop. I'm thinking that if I do, it might indicate that the issue with the SM itself (and not my shonky wiring)

On 4/24/2020 at 3:24 AM, maca said:

Try removing spark plugs and crank over it could be you have a tired starter motor that needs attention.

On 4/24/2020 at 2:03 PM, Dave Ed said:

I had a similar problem a few years ago. I renewed all of the earths, cranked the engine without the plugs, boosted the battery but it was only when I fitted a new starter motor that she fired up without labouring. 

On 4/24/2020 at 8:54 AM, MarkBzero said:

Try bench testing your starter.

 

Gents thanks so much for your responses.

Starter was bench tested yesterday. It seems to spin freely, though I cannot be sure of the speed or actual turning moment produced. Once engaged it seems to take a second or two to reach full speed. 

After cleaning the mating surfaces and refitting there is a slight improvement, however it still struggles to turn more than a couple of revs in a row.

Dave, you mentioned that you had a similar issue, may I ask whether you bench tested the unit before replacing, and did it seem to spin when not under load?

On 4/24/2020 at 11:49 AM, richyb66 said:

Unbolt the earth lead between the engine and the chassis and give the clamping surfaces a good clean, then refit it. The power to the starter motor needs a good return path. 

Thanks Richy, have done this and this has made a made an improvement, although still struggling. Still it clearly needed doing, thanks for the tip

On 4/24/2020 at 5:40 PM, Grim said:

The spark plug fires with the piston on the compression stroke, slightly before top dead centre. This is to account for how long the fuel mixture takes to burn, so that the cylinder pressure increases at TDC in time for the downstroke. If the mixture is ignited too early, cylinder pressure increases on the compression stroke, and the starter has to fight it.

Aaaah, of course 10o before TDC. That makes sense. Thanks will put this on the list

7 hours ago, maca said:

Try removing spark plugs and crank over it could be you have a tired starter motor that needs attention.

Hi Maca, I'm starting to suspect the SM too, so I should test it properly to eminate it from enquiries. Thanks!

Thanks Mark, this is really useful and I'll have a go tonight. I dis a really rough test and the sloenoid seems to work, and the motor spins freely, but it will be good to do a more controlled test!

1 hour ago, MarkBzero said:

Try bench testing your starter.

 

8 hours ago, marlin said:

If timing is way off you could be pushing against compression. Just a thought.

35 minutes ago, Grim said:

this is my guess, try retarding the timing a little.

Could also be corroded earth strap / starter cable/battery terminals

Thanks both. Would that be timing? Forgive me I'm not an engineer by trade and I'm still learning and picking things up. I thought the timing only related to whether the spark fired at the right point in the cycle - at the end of the compression stroke. The starter motor should over come the compression even if there is no spark at all, should it not? 

The earth straps seem to be fresh and I have clean contacts, and I have good voltage from the chassis and engine block to the +ive terminal

Thanks Fry will look at that. I did try using a boost starter, however that made no difference to the ability of the starter-motor to turn the engine, but perhaps a jump start is more sensible. A tleast it will indicate whether the battery may be the issue

After many years languising in my garage (the car, not me) I've finally rewired my pinto / S7. 

The fuse box and wiring have been bench tested.

The Engine has good compression, and the starter/solenoid spin freely.

The battery is new (it is a lightweight one, 12v obvs, 22Ah)

When trying to turn over engine is reluctant to turn - it does, but as if the battery is flat (I have ensure that the battery is fully charged as far as I can)

There is good lube, the pistons move freely in the cylinders. there are no alarming noises.

Does anyone have any suggestions?