Sump Removal Problems!

[Guest robbie]

As you know I have decided to shorten the sump on my sub k. This involves removing the sump by lifting the engine slightly. Well, I can't lift the engine any further as it is touching the chassis at the bach of the engine near the firewall. I need to lift at least 40 mm to allow the sump to fall past the lower crossmember on the chassis that sits just behind the anti-roll bar.

Heres the solution!

How about cutting the cross member to alow the sump to come out and sleeving it and bolting it (or welding) back when the jobs done! I imagine this bar is for lateral ridgidity and does not bear any load under normal circumstances.

I have stopped for some coffee and a period of calm before I fire up the grinder and go mad! I have practically dismantled the car to lift the engine and still can't get the sump out. grrrrrrrrrrrrrr

Since I can't see past the red mist that has descended on me, I await your help!

Is this a good idea, or insanity!!!!!!!!!

 

regards

 

Robbie

[Big Jim]

No! cutting lumps out of the car, then trying to weld them up later is definately NOT a good idea! :angry: :angry:

Take the bloody engine out if you can't get the sump off with it still in, it'll only take about 45 mins to get it out.

Next time, listen to your Uncle Jim, you've all been told to shorten the sump BEFORE you put the engine in, but you can't bloody wait, can you?

That's why we are old and balding, (By-passed the grey stage through owning a Hood!) we've already made the mistakes for you youngsters!

[Guest daveg]

Robbie

 

NO, no don't cut the chassis up

 

Do exactly as Jim described....whip the engine out.

 

Dave

[Guest Mr Pid]

Yes def DO NOT CUT CHASSIS.

 

I had the same grief (as we all do at some point) in getting my sump out of the car, mines a 2B which is a bit more forgiving.

 

What are you lifting the engine with? I originally used a few jacks and got the system down to about an hour to get it out. There are many axis for the engine to turn on and it can be a bit of a balancing act, although quite dangerous with a couple of hundred kilos of engine.

 

When i bit the bullet and bought an engine crane it made the whole procees much easier, you can chain the engine and pull it and twist it, i think mine actually ended up falling off!

 

Get a mate to help- its much much easier with a spare pair of hands.

 

Good luck

 

Stu

[Guest robbie]

Everybody can relax now, I have set the grinder down and stepped back from it!!

Engine supported by sturdy roof truss and sump removed (and just about everything else attached to engine!)

Lesson well and truly learnt, yes Jim I should have done all this first, unfortunately my enthusiasm blinded me.

I have now given the sump over to a mate with a TIG along with Jims sump plans.

Jim, is there any amendments to the plans or just as is?

Also, since the work will be carried out in a factory, can we reduce pick up pipe by same amount as sump is reduced, so if 40mm is removed from sump we can shorten pipe by 40mm?

Thanks again for returning my sanity and your collective ministry towards me!

 

Kind regards

 

Robbie

[Big Jim]

Once you've cut the bottom off, shorten the oil pipe and keep sitting it inside the upturned sump by holding the bracket down onto the workbench, that will show you just where the oil basket will be when you put it all together. You will find that you just have to cut into the bend of the pipe, so just putting the oil basket straight back on won't work, you have to manipulate the hole in it so that it will finish up parallel to the bottom plate when brazed up. you'll see what I mean when you actually start to do it.

There are 2 other points that will help, once you've cut the 2 inverted 'V's in, make sure that one of them goes as far as possible towards the joint of the' coal bunker addition' this will stop any air locks and make sure that you get maximum amount of oil in.

The other is, the sump plug hole, you need it as low as possible (the dimension on the drawing is correct) but not low enought for it to be unscrewed, should you 'rub' over an obsticle. (and use a new washer on the plug afterwards!)

Another thing is, do not touch your dip stick. the top level of the oil stays the same, just keep it at that level because you don't have another 1½ inches of oil underneath now.

Put new rubber seals into the main bearing caps before refitting (unless they are fairly new)

[Guest Kev Newborough]

On my 2b I lifted the engine as high as I could and when the sump bolts were removed although the sump would not come out it did give me just enough room to get a spanner in and remove the bolts holding the pick up pipe in place.With the pick up pipe lying in the bottom of the sump it is then easy to remove.Not sure this will work on a sub k but it did on my 2b.I know that it is too late for you as you have now removed the engine but it may be of some help to any one else doing the same job.Mind you when you come to refitting it , it does help if you are a gynaecologist as in the words of Mr Haynes "refitting is the reversal of the removal procedure" and the pick up pipe is a bugger to refit with the sump loosely in position but it can be done.

[Guest robbie]

Just a quick note on the sump dilema! Got it shorterned, lovely job by mate who inspects work at aircraft factory! Talk about a pain to get back in though!

I struggled alone at it and have a number of concerns.

1: one of the bolts will not tighten up, thread dodgy in engine block.

2: took long time fitting (about 40mins) wondering how long before sealant sets.

3: gasket has started to deform and "edge out" around joint, particularly at bolts.

Does the oil fill above the gasket or is it just subject to splash and run down from engine?

In short I don't know wether to redo whilst engine is still out or if this is good enough. Hate to think of refit and then discover gasket leak!

 

Help please

 

 

Regards

 

Robbie

 

PS might I add a note to all potential Robin Hood builders:

SHORTEN THE SUMP BEFORE FITTING TO YOUR KIT CAR!

I thank you!

[Guest timswait]

The only way to be entirely sure is to fill it with oil and see, however I doubt you'll have any leaks.

Firstly the oil does just sit in the the bottom of the sump and does not come up to the level of the gasket.

Having one loose bolt probably won't cause a problem.

The gasket sealant should be OK, the stuff I use stays softish even after several months, so 40 mins shouldn't be a problem. It doesn't need to be liquid when you put the surfaces together, just soft enough to squeeze into any gaps.

When my mate put a sump on his Sierra's engine he mis read the torque wrench settings as Kg.m instead of N.m and tried to tighten all the bolts to 9.8 times the torque they should be. He must have squeezed pretty much all the cork out from between the faces but his still didn't leak, so I guess you should be OK.

[Guest robbie]

You say all the right things Tim! Just what I wanted to hear.

Thanks for your help

 

Robbie

[Guest lopsylu]

Having looked at the level of the sump under my subK I decided togo along this route and shorten the sump. I have managed to remove if from the chassis and have cut it down. Now comes the problem. Fisrtly I can't find anyone in the Bristol area to supply me some 1.5mm plating for the extra panel, or 3mm plating for the new shortened bottom - anybody know of anywhere in the southwest? Who also weld?

 

Please don't suggest I visit my local engineers. They were totally unhelpful, apart from being kind enough to suggest they might call the local police to have me ejected.

 

Also - Jim's build tip says the oil strainer on the pick up pipe can be removed by gently applying a welding torch. Exactly how gentle should this be? I have gone all the way from the pipe being stone cold, up to glowing red hot, and the thing wont budge at all. Anyone got a strainer already removed they could part with for some cash?!!!?

 

Graeme

[Guest DaveB]

Must by a right grumpy lot down there when ever I need a lump of plate I just ask to look in the scrap bin and help myself for free. If you are passing through the Poole or Bournemouth area leave me a PM and I will get you what you need. As for the strainer pipe it is braised on therefore you will to get it cherry red before it will shift mine came off easily when hot enough.

 

Cheers

 

Dave B

[Guest lopsylu]

Well that's it. I admit defeat. I've just about had enough of this second class crap and am going to try and sell the kit.

 

I spent 2 days cutting and shaping the only piece of steel I could get my hands on (2.5mm) and took it to a couple of places to try and get it welded. Both places said because the steel was thicker than the sump (1.5mm) welding would be very difficult if not impossible, therefore they would have to cut out plating from another sheet of metal and the whole job would cost me over £100. To shorten a frigging sump.

 

All this garbage has now cost me over 3 weeks and I have had to go backwards in the build to take the sump off. The car is now no longer at the rolling chassis stage. If I had known about this web site earlier things might have been a bit different but I didn't, and they aren't.

 

I went for the Robinhood becasue I catagorically did not want to get involved in welding of any sort and the brochure said I didn't need huge amounts of that kind of skill. Some chance. If shortening of the sump is so recommended, as it obviously is judging by the postings on the site, why is nothing mentioned by Robinhood themselves?

 

I have quite a lot of gripes about the whole thing really.

 

My kit came missing ANY self tappers, rivets or nuts. Only 2 washers and has none of the required 3 bolts to fit the fuel cap. To say I was met with indiference on the technical line would be an understatement. Frankly it was just plain rudeness. Have you watched the videos? Have you watched the videos? Have you watched the videos? Have you watched the videos? Thats all I could get out of them. Repeatedly. I am a 33 year old married family man, not a 12 year old kid messing about, and to be treated this way by the company I have just lined the pockets of to the tune of nearly 2 grand is disgusting. And some people wonder why this country is in such a mess.

 

Many thanks to everyone who replied to any of the posts I have put on here, and thanks Dave for the offer of the steel plate, but I cannot be bothered any more. My wife will be due to give birth early next year and frankly it ain't the fun it was any more so before I end up divorced I'm calling it a day.

[Big Jim]

I'm sorry to hear that Graeme, but don't give up that easily. What your local garage has told you is *bleep*s, so don't believe them. They just want to rip you off.

Contact your Area sec. get in touch with other builders, and owners around you, someone else will know where to go to get it done. It's like a "self help" group.

 

Sooner or later along the build of one of these cars, you will come to the point that you are at. STOP, step back, lock the garage, and forget about it, for a few days, weeks, even months, then when your frame of mind has changed and your battery has been replenished, have another go at it, but do one job at a time, ask on this board before you start it; "I intend to fit the............next, anyone any tips?" this way you'll get told of the potential pit-falls, and better ways of doing things before you go blindly at it.

go to the main RHOCAR site, and read everyones web site (members cars) you'll find idea's there, also you'll note where the problems will arise and how other people have overcome it.

Right, go play with the kids, give the wife a cuddle, and leave the car alone.

It's not a jail sentance.

 

don't sell it.

Also people have problems with other kitcar manufacturers products, most of them costing megga more that the RH.

 

Best of luck.

 

Jim

 

PS. There was an little engineering firm that advertised on the old board for suppling a shortened sump & pick up pipe for £50 exchange, but I can't find the ad, maybe someone will come up with their Tel No?

Edited August 13, 2003 by Big Jim

[Guest Guy]

You must have an extreemly large chest to have all that on it, but now it's off and good on you.

 

I've wanted to vent anger myself lots of times, I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels that way about the whole thing and I think you echo the thoughts of lots of people.

 

But I'm gona finish the thing if it's the last thing I do, my kids think it's grate that I'm building a car that'll fly (well I had to jolly them along some how )

 

Go and batter an old bit of the Sierra, It'll make you feel better.

 

Your current sump problem will be overcome, I think your local engineering firm are a bunch of tossers.