Help With Starting

[Guest Captain Daz]

Help me guys.

 

New battery correctly connected.

New coil, tested.

New HT leads, correct resistance.

New rotor arm.

New Distributor cap.

New spark plugs.

 

Engine turns over well. Fuel pump works well.

 

Original loom, properly labelled and connected..................

 

No bloody spark!!

 

Any clues? :boohoo:

 

Cheers

 

Daren

[Guest Ant]

EFi or carbs? Either way what about your ignition module? On EFi's there's a hall effect sensor in the dizzy and if this fails you don't get a spark either.

 

Things to try:

 

- Put a spark plug on the end of the "king pin" (centre) HT lead which normally goes to the dizzy. Remove the negative lead from the coil, put the ignition on, and then get a length or wire, earth it to the chassis or battery, and tap it a few times against the negative terminal on the coil. Earth the spark plug of course, and hold it with suitable insulation. You should get one spark per tap of the coil terminal. This proves that the coil is working.

 

- Next put the plug into one of the normal HT leads, reconnect the dizzy, and turn the engine so that the rotor arm is under the ht lead you've got the plug connected to. Again, tap an earth onto the coil and you should get one spark per tap. this proves the rotor arm and dizzy cap are ok.

 

- Next reconnect the coil as normal, keep the one plug on the lead which the rotor arm points to, but this time remove the dizzy and with the ignition on, spin it by hand. You should get sparks. If not then either the hall sensor of the ignition module are at fault.

 

From here on I'm assuming you're EFi. Carb setup is similar but I'm not sure exactly how it works.

 

- To test the ignition module, run a wire from the centre connector (labelled "o" I think) on the dizzy connection, and tap it against the chassis to earth it. This should cause the ignition module to break the coil circuit, and you should get a spark. If not then the ignition module is faulty.

 

- Finally, put a volt meter between the centre dizzy wire and the chassis, and (with ignition on) turn the dizzy by hand. As it turns you should see 5v, then 0v, then 5v, then 0v, etc etc. It could be 12v not 5 - I can't remember. If you don't check for power and earth on the + and - pins on the dizzy. If they're there but the middle pin doesn't switch then the sensor is faulty.

 

Hope that helps. You need at least 3 pairs of hands to do most of the above, and be careful not to leave your ignition on for too long without anything running - it burns out the coil, as I know from personal experience!

 

Ant

[Guest TerryBarry]

Have you got +12v on the ignition switch when you turn it on

Is +12v appearing at the coil.

Have you got all the various earth leads from the loom connected to the chassis

 

What ignition system are you using ?

 

Ooops - misssed Ant's reply - run through that lot first

 

Terry

Edited May 14, 2004 by TerryBarry

[Mat-Moo]

How good are all your grounds from chassis to engine etc.?

[Guest Captain Daz]

Ta for the replies.

 

2.0l carbs. All earths are good to battery and chassis. ESC II module wired up correctly. Will give Ants ideas a try and let you know.

 

One question. If the hall effect sensor is bust, does that mean a new distributor?

 

Thanks again.

 

Daren

[Guest Charles B]

If the hall sensor is bust, you can get a replacement from a good auto electrician (they use a supplier called Cargo), though a scrap yard is still probably cheaper.

By the way it's a lot easier to test the ignition with the distributor removed, and turning it by hand, saves your starter motor.

[Guest Lindsay]

Hi Daz

 

I'm running the same set up as yourself and had the exact same problem.

 

I traced it to a single earth wire that comes from the engine bay wiring loom and earths directly onto the battery.( I think it could possibly earth the ESCii, not sure)I didn't have it earthed. Try that, good luck.

 

Lindsay

[Guest Captain Daz]

Cheers Lindsay,

 

I've earthed all the relevant earths I can find. Was your earth a small brown wire earth or a lage cable? The wiring diagram doesn't show any earths for the ESC II module but I'll keep searching!

 

Thanks Charles,

 

But can you tell me where the hall effect sensor is/how to remove it. Is it where the connector goes in to the bottom of the dizzy?? There's nothing in the Haynes manual.

 

Thanks again

 

Daren

[Guest Charles B]

The sensor is on a plate underneath the disc with the four slots in it under the rotor arm. It's a bit fiddly to get the disc off -it's a push fit with a small locating key.

It's unusual for the sensors to play up, I would keep on with checking the wiring for the moment.

[Guest Ant]

My hall effect sensor did fail. Engine ran fine in the donor by 6 months later in the 2B the sensor was duff. Is it still a hall effect sensor in the carb setup? It's a different dizzy, right?

 

Ant

[Guest Lindsay]

Daz

 

The earth wire i'm talking about is a thin black wire and it was originaly earthed direct onto the battery negative on my donor 1989 2.0 saphire (G )reg.

 

I will be at my car tomorow and will check the wiring.

 

Look at the simple things first!

 

Hope this helps.

 

Lindsay

[Guest Captain Daz]

Gentlemen

 

Thanks for the continuing advice.

 

Ant, yes it is a hall effect sensor so that could be a possible problem.

 

Charles and Lindsay, thanks for the ideas. I just wanted to get as many ideas as I can so I can then methodically go through each phase step by step. I'll start with the basic and work up to the complex. If it doesn't work by then I'll shoot myself! :angry:

 

I'll be trying tonight, so wish me luck.

 

Hopefully no tears on the pillow. :boohoo:

 

Cheers

 

Daren

[Guest Lindsay]

Daz

 

I misled you the black wire I talked about is a thin brown wire. It does earth the ESCII, and car will not fire up if disconnected.

 

Lindsay

[Guest Captain Daz]

Lindsay

 

Got that thanks.

 

I fell at the first fence last night. No spark when I connected the spark plug directly to the coil. Bugger. Then I disconnected the coil and battery and with a suitable set of wires I plumbed the same set up directly to the battery. i.e. +ve lead from battery to +ve coil post, HT out to spark plug, spark plug to -ve on battery and -ve battery lead to tap the -ve coil post. I got a spark at the plug although it was very weak. Most of the sparking was going on at the -ve coil post.

 

I think this may show the coil works. That must mean I'm not getting 12v to the coil in the first place? I'll try connecting it up again and test the voltage at the coil/at the ign switch.

 

I will win the day!

 

Cheers

 

Daren

[Guest Ant]

Ok, a couple of things to try next then. First off, measure the resistances on your coil and compare them to the Haynes values quoted for your engine. One measurement is from the +ve to the -ve on the LT side, and the other is from the centre HT side to either of the LT terminals.

 

Something I've dscovered with coils ... I burnt mine out recently by leaving the ignition on without starting the car. It was open circuit when I measured the LT resistance with it on the car, but by the time I'd removed it and wandered into the garage with it in my hand the connection returned, and when re-fitted to the car again it all worked. I didn't trust it though so I replaced it anyhow.

 

To test everything else at the coil end, the 12v should come directly from the battery once the ignitino is switched on. The -ve will be pulsed as the engin turns. To test this put your voltmeter between the battery 12v and the -ve coil lead and watch what happens as you turn the dizzy.

 

Sounds like you're getting there. Just keep testing it piece by piece and be systematic as you go.

 

Ant