Catastrophic Failure - Advice Needed

[Guest sandy77uk]

Hi all

 

So the new car has done 87 miles and this evening I had a catastrophic failure of the water system, was on the way back from a small village were the wife I like the fish and chips, nearly home and a spray of water hits the screen and then smoke billows out from the bonnet, scalding water hits my ankles and I kill the engine, hazzards and free wheel to the side of the dual carriage way

 

i've opened her up and found the issue straight away, there are 2 outlets on the blacktop zetec for a heater matrix, I've not got one fitted, what I've done is use a 2inch pipe (1 per side) 19mm ID with an alloy blanking plug (also 19mm ID) these were then clamped on with jublie clips (*bleep* ones, these are worm driven and easily break) 2 per side (1 on the engine side, one on the blanking plug side) the pipe on the drivers side, had blown the plug out the end of the pipe (ive found it) whilst both jubilee clipes remained in place

 

The jubile clips I used were to be honest, poor quality, I had used them everywhere else and even filling the car up gave me leakes on my main water pipes (not on these 2 though) so I ended going to a local pipe specialist who supplied me with new silcone elbows, proper jubile clips and my fuel lines as it so happens, once fitted and tightened using a hexdriver these have been fine (i just didnt even think these ones needed replacing)

 

Having removed both jubilee clips and the pipe, you can see the imprint on the pipe of the large clip i used on the engine side, however checking the plug side, the clip hasnt compressed into the rubber and i can see where the thread on the worm has damaged the main clip so it wont tighten further

 

My question is this, is the design fine and the failure is most likely due to using poor quality parts at the plug end, or is the design flawed?

 

thanks for reading and thanks for any advice

 

- James

 

Forgot to mention, I pushed the car and wife the 2 miles back to the house which took 30 mins, it maybe a light car but up hill, *bleep* me gently, I've checked oil, both dipstick and cam cover and I've no gunk so I think I've dodged a bullet there (I have breakdown cover but didnt want to use it)

[Shaft]

Sh1t luck there Sandy... But I reckon you already know the answer mate.

Don't ruin a ship for a ha'penny o' tar.

 

On a side note, on the V8's I used to run I linked the heater outlets together to allow a flow rather than creating s dead end.

 

Cheers

 

Nick.

[Guest loopyonion]

The two outlets, are one outlet, and one inlet that feeds the heater and bypasses the thermostat to aid warmup. If you refit, and blank them again, remove the thermostat, otherwise, provide it with a loop from the outlet to the inlet, leaving the thermostat in place.

 

Use some good clips, I tend to stick to genuine jubilees. Hopefully you won't have done any damage

[Guest sandy77uk]

Cma - I couldn't be arsed as I said, I was only 2miles from home so decided to push it

 

Is there a reason why I need to provide a flow? I've got no problem with finding and fitting a single hose to connect both holes but I'd like to understand why, in my mind, blanking plugs should be ok? The single pipe just connects into the bottom of the thermostat housing and doesn't actually bypass anything

[Longboarder]

The single pipe (would) just connect into the bottom of the thermostat housing and doesn't actually bypass anything

Are you talking about the 'heater' outlets on the thermostat housing? They both connect into the same chamber in the stat housing. So you are correct. It wouldn't achieve much.

They are NOT both heater connections. One is the warm-up bypass. One is a heater feed. (Heater return is to the bottom hose.) I suspect you warmed up to fast and boiled the water in the head and block before it had a chance to get at the stat as there is no flow in your set-up to operate the thermostat! Starting warm but with the stat closed and immediately ragging it because it is warm so it's OK could boil before the stat opens.

 

Both these are connected to the bottom hose in the Ford system, one via the heater. I suggest you connect the warm-up bypass to the bottom hose. You then get flow through the block, head and past the stat before it opens. So no hotspots, no head warping, no boiling and the stat will open (if functional. Check!) when needed, rather than when conduction/convection manages to get some hot water into the stat housing!

 

Nigel

[Longboarder]

Can't seem to post a pic on editing above.

 

Nigel

[Guest sandy77uk]

boarder, ive done 87 miles before this happened, ive had no heating issues, the way I have my system is

 

bottom rad hose onto the water pump, thermostat outlet to radiator, then these other 2 outlets blocked off (1 on the thermostat housing and one by cylinder 4 (i'm guessing the warmup bypass) if all roads lead to rome, surely the water in the block will warm up enough to open the termostat, i shouldn't need to have these 2 outlets feeding anywhere, unless i link them together

 

I certainly don't want to start heavily modifying all my water pipes to represent the diagram above

[Guest dctough]

It does sound like you are 'dead-ending' the system during warm-up. During warm up the water being pumped has no-where has to go because the thermostat is closed and both the heater and bypass ports are blocked.  So as there can be no flow through the system; there is is no guarantee hot water will reach the thermostat to make it open.

 

A quick fix if you don't want to change your set-up would be to drill a small hole in the thermostat to allow a trickle of water to flow around the system during warm-up.

 

Dave

[Longboarder]

Agree the quick fix above but obviously feel happier with a plumbed bypass. I would drill a hole at least 4mm in the stat plate.

 

Not sure which 'one by cylinder four' you mean. On the stat housing or on the block? You don't have a water-rail do you? It's always hard to diagnose remote if you don't know the exact set up you have!!!

 

If you don't have a heater you can block the passenger side stat housing outlet as you have.

 

I suspect you did your 87 miles with a slower warm-up and the stat opened earlier. Trying to work out possible problems which would allow you 87 miles OK and then cause a failure. Of course it may just be that the bung gave way and your plumbing is fine apart from the bung!. A good bung can be made with 16mm copper plumbing bits. A dead end, a straight joiner and a bit of pipe, then you have lots of ridges for the jubilee clip to grip.

 

Nigel

 

Nigel

[Guest sandy77uk]

I've always owned rovers with the infamous K series, so wanted to remove the termostat but found out there is a rubber O ring on the termostat which means if removed entirely it leaks, so to that end I drilled a 3.5mm hole in the termostat to aid flow during warm up, I will take it out and drill a second hole,

 

the 2 outlets are as you say, one on the passenger side as part of the termostat housing, the other on the driver side that sits under the HT lead column, i suspect the bung popped out as the clips are *bleep*e, so I will replace with better quality and test again

 

the bungs are good quality bungs I bought from AP motorsport, i've convinced myself its the clip holding it wasn't tightened correctly

[megadodo]

If the heater was turned to cold (assuming you had one) would that not be the same as blocking the pipe anyway? Or is there not a valve in the system? I blame the builder myself ! Of course I have never not tightened up a jubilee clip properly to slowly loose a lot of coolant out of the bottom pipe!

[Guest sandy77uk]

i've rang GBS and Richard advised lots of customers have done it the same way I have, so the design isn't flawed, I'm going to take the termostat out tonight and drill a second larger hole, and then refit the blanking plugs

[Longboarder]

A small hole in the thermostat with a jiggle pin in was used in the past, OEM, to help bleed air. Drilling a hole in the thermostat to act as the warm-up bypass system is hardly a design, flawed or not. It will probably work,sort of.

The water pump is virtually stalled while the stat is closed with this set-up. That may stress the belt, squeal, stretch it, etc and lead to premature failure.. Carry a spare!

You may have hot spots in the block or head and it's ally on cast iron so increased risk of blowing a head gasket.

I admit to being anal about this sort of thing.

 

Nigel

[Guest sandy77uk]

It's something I may have to look at, wonder if I could tap a hole into the bottom metal pipe and put a pipe in, I've drilled 6 holes in the stat for the time being

[Longboarder]

I used 28mm plumbing copper for the cross pipe from bottom of rad to water pump. It was a simple job.to put in a 28, 28,16 T piece. With straight joiners soldered to the ends you have 2X 32 large pipe ends and about 20 on the 16mm pipe. Paint black or polish.Worked well for four years so far.

 

Nigel