Old Argument

[Guest jasonmorris]

Right come on then.

 

I have to shortly change all my rockers due to wear, so I thought I'd bring my cam up to spec while at it.

 

Currently I'm running a Piper 270 fast road which is a little mild for my engine spec. So I was looking at buying a Piper 285 cam kit. But now I am undecided and may choose the Kent FR32 which I think has a similar degree of lift.

 

Has anyone tried these cams back to back or should I be looking at even wilder for my engine spec. I already have 173bhp at the fly and am looking to get it to 180 without loosing much driveability.

 

Would love to hear informed opinions.

 

Cheers,

 

Jason

[chris27]

try an RL31 ....

 

it's power band is lower, so you get more grunt lower down the rev rainge have one fitted in the hood and it gave me 178 bhp at the fly

 

cheers

 

C

[Snapperpaul]

173bhp using a cam with 270 duration!!!!

Are you sure?

Turbocharged?

Supercharged?

 

The RL31 which I use needs 10.5 to 1 minimum and is happy at 11 to 1 but needs forged pistons

Edited September 24, 2011 by Snapperpaul

[Guest jasonmorris]

Yep positive mate, at least that's what Russ at torque tune worked out from 138-139bhp at the back wheels. That's what the car did on his rolling road the day before the last GBS open day.

 

That's why I think the existing can is too mild for the engine spec. I need to go to at least 185 degrees e ration me thinks possibly more.

 

Jason

[Longboarder]

I had a Piper 285 cam in the old pinto. 2.0l but with raised CR three angle valve seats and a bit of a port clean up and twin 40's. The best things were the power band was from 2000, it was easy to potter about town at 30 in fourth gear and it wanted to rev to 7000 plus. I always felt I could easily have gone another half step wilder on the cam with no problem or a whole step if I was prepared to lose a bit of flexibility at low speed. I like Piper but have never had a Kent cam in an engine!

 

Nigel

[Bob Tucker]

I had a Piper 285 cam in the old pinto. 2.0l but with raised CR three angle valve seats and a bit of a port clean up and twin 40's. The best things were the power band was from 2000, it was easy to potter about town at 30 in fourth gear and it wanted to rev to 7000 plus. I always felt I could easily have gone another half step wilder on the cam with no problem or a whole step if I was prepared to lose a bit of flexibility at low speed. I like Piper but have never had a Kent cam in an engine!

 

Nigel

 

My experience mirrors Nigel's, almost identical engine spec except larger inlet valves, & very similar characteristics....but I had an FR32 fitted!! Again, I always thought I could/should have gone just a bit more!!

Bob T

[speedtripledan]

I can second jasons results spoke to russ the otherday whilst mine was there popping 176 or 211 depending who im boosting to.

[Guest jasonmorris]

Cheers Dan. I must admit it surprised me and Russ a little, especially with the 270 cam in. However I must add the engine cost a very lot of money to build over a period of time. If I'd hate known how much in the beginning I would certainly have gone down the zetec or duratec route. Hence the reason for getting the use of this engine now in my zero.

 

Nigel, the engine itself always feels like there is a fair bit more to come from it, especially with the engine spec being what it is. Would you suggest that I ought to consider something such as the piper 300 or fr33? I also desperately have to upgrade my ignition system as it is deffo holding me back. I need something with 15 degrees advance at tickover rising to 34 max. So its either megajolt or bestek for me, still unsure which way to go tho, mmm????

 

Jason

[Snapperpaul]

Megajolt gives you the option to change advance at will and you cab switch maps on the fly.

I've fitted Megajolt to 3 engines.

On a Pinto the difficult bit is fitting a crank position sensor bracket firmly to the engine.

The wiring looks difficult but once you have done it once it's easy.

Wilder cams with more duration will give less dynamic compression due to the later closing of the inlet valve, to make these cams work you need more static compression, once static compression gies above 10.5 to 1 you need forged Pistons.

It becomes a journey of diminishing returns.

Wish I'd fitted forged pistons from the start.

Edited October 12, 2011 by Snapperpaul

[Longboarder]

My experience with a mild tune and the piper 285 in a pinto was of a very normal docile driving car around town and in traffic. I did have a modified dizzy but only by the addition of a magnetronic module. No alteration of the advance curve. Dizzy was originally out of a pinto 2.0 capri. I don't know what the mechanical advance figures were for the capri dizzy but they were fine for my set-up. These days I would go for megajolt with a TPS to get a proper 3D advance curve. My Dellortos were well set-up on a rolling road and were economical.

The car was so normal driving that I often felt that I could have gone a bit wilder on the cam but having bought the 285 I was never going to ditch it and buy a 300. If I was starting again tuning a pinto I would go for the 300 or FR33. 2.1 L and good headwork. Decent exhaust manifold and both manifolds well matched to the ports. I think the benefits of 3D ignition over a dizzy, however well modified are also well proven. So megajolt with TPS or MAP. Then get it on a rolling road.

If you ever have the engine out, to fit ARP big end, mains and flywheel bolts then I would have the bottom end balanced. A lightened flywheel would be nice but I would have to have been happy with the way the engine/car drove with the 300 cam because there would be a slight loss of smoothness with a light flywheel.

Non of these things is very expensive and should produce a nice powerful exciting engine. My old pinto was more fun than the zetecs as it was so much more alive, rough, noisy and communicative. The zetecs were faster but so dull. The ST170 is more fun and scary fast but a bit of a tuning dead end but I'm working on that. I've had a skim done and some port work as the exhaust ports are so small. Getting rid of the VVC and swinging the cam in the old fashioned way to find optimal timing. Again none of this is expensive and can be done in dribs and drabs as time permits. Having a spare engine to play with helps.

 

Nigel

[Guest jasonmorris]

Thanks guys. To be honest, I know megajolt is the way to go but having read a few posts there were just a few things that scared me, such as fitting a sensor bracket and trigger wheel while the engine is in the car, or getting the wiring wrong.

 

Nigel I'm definately going to go for a 300 degrees duration cam kit as my engine including bottom end has been extensively modified and rebuilt to a high standard including all balancing and lightening etc... However do you know if the cam, springs and followers are just a straight swap or will I need to make some modifications to my head in order for them to fit?

 

As for the manifolds, the inlet is matched and dowelled to the head but the exhaust isn't. This isn't a problem because I am going to get Martin Keenan of MK fame to make me a whole new track friendly system when funds allow.

 

Jason

[Guest shaggy]

But now I am undecided and may choose the Kent FR32 which I think has a similar degree of lift.

 

Jason,

 

last year I fitted an FR32 kit, did less than 200 miles and had a follower pop off the cam whilst on the way down to Newark. I kicked off big time to Burton power who supplied the kit, and initially they refused refund due to unknown quantities. They suggested I had oil starvation, or I hadn't run in the cam and followers in the right manner. I suggested to them that the followers were not properly case hardened.

 

I was eventually send another cam, and new set of followers, which have been on the car for the last 16 months or so without fault.

 

When replacing the followers, I did observe that the replacement followers were a different manufacturer, so beware if buying a full kit from Burton, the followers supplied with the kit are crap....

 

Si

[Snapperpaul]

Have a good look at Kent cams web site, it says what fitted height the valve springs should be.

The FR32 is a straight fit, the RL31 I fitted needed the valve spring seats cutting back and widening to take the double springs then I spent some time with shims under the double springs to get the correct fitted height.

I got the machining done at Gosneys near Romford on the A12 cost about £90.

The valve train geometry is always a problem on Pintos and needs carefull setting up to get the full lift from your expensive camshaft.

Edited October 12, 2011 by Snapperpaul

[Longboarder]

The 285 cam kit was a straight fit without modifications and a careful run in/work hardening procedure to ensure long life. Don't know about the 300/33. I suggest you give piper or kent a ring and ask them.

Martin made my exhaust and it's excellent quality. However I've been waiting two months for the collectors to turn it from 4:1 to 4:2:1 and still no signs of them.

 

Nigel

[Guest jasonmorris]

I will definately call piper or Kent regarding any extra head work required before I purchase.

 

With regards to installation and running in properly are these things pretty straightforward or should I be seeking professional help. I don't mind the odd bit of spanner work and I do have the Haynes manual. Out of interest I managed to come across Des Hammil's excellent book the

other day hiding in my loft so if anyone would ever like to borrow it, it has some excellent advice for power tuning pinto's.

 

Jason