Series 3 Front Suspension

[Guest eastyorks]

Hi guys, I'm looking at changing my zimmerides to spax or similar on my series 3 (outboard coilovers)

 

Dave@dampertec can supply units but do i change springs (was told by rhe they were 180lbs?)

Any help appreciated

[Longboarder]

Interesting question. I have a new 3, angled outboard shocks and a lower wishbone. 3 and 3A had inboard shocks I think. I have been down to 120lb springs which are great for a comfy ride but don't help with roll. I'm back up to 180lb on the front and 300lb on the back. Live with the harsh ride and minimal roll if you have that competitive streak.

If you want to enjoy a more comfortable ride then 120/130lb on the front are fine. You will need to have them an inch longer than your current springs to allow some preload and look carefully at the length of shocks.

 

Nigel

[Guest mower man]

180's are to stiff on the inboard suspension but with out doing some involved maths and making a geastimate they should be very close on the out board system ,this is because ofthe angle of the shockers they may even stand another 10/15 lbs my ops only mick

[Guest eastyorks]

Thanks guys.

Nigel, I have the same model as yours, bought it in 1998.

only difference on your setup is my bottom suspension mounts are welded under the bottom arms not above.

Tried to a load a pic, keeps saying file too large?

 

My problem is the ride, great on the rear but the front is very "solid" and tends to skitter over road undulations.

If you push the front of the car down the suspension stays compressed, and vice versa if you lift, there is very little rebound.

Both the arms are free so I'm putting it down to the dampers?

 

Paul

Edited February 1, 2015 by eastyorks

[cb750]

Since you have had the car a long time and you are only now unhappy with the suspension it does sound like the shock damping has changed (failed). I would have thought that you could keep the original springs if you wanted and fit them to the new coilovers if the diameters will fit

[Guest eastyorks]

No ive never used it much because of this issue, its amassed 382 miles since 1998! Having driven a friends westfield i realised my "new series 3" was not that well designed so its lived in the garage most its life.

 

I did speak to rhe at the time, Richard said they all jump about on the road because there so light!! and the front suspension spring load is correct and should be very hard.

 

Paul

[Guest mower man]

Ihave a cuople of thing s for you to check --1 are the top wish bone siezed /tight on their pivots --2 have you got the sierra a/roll bar fitted as in the picture on the other post if so there are ways of replacing it ,this was aknown fault on the early monos car and can lead to tub cracks appearing send me your Postal address and I will put some info together with photos ,I ran an S7 for 12 years and softened the front because it was loosening my teeth .there are other mods ,lets get the basics right first ,throw the zimmer things in the skip they were one of tricky dickie 's mistakes, sort some dampers from Dave at Dampertech the springs should be ok .Free off the toparms and drill for a grease nipple .the next bit require a little engineering but no welding , get your adress to me and I,ll send the info . Steamer on here can probably supply you with a kit of parts for the mod if you dont want the engineering bit all my info is free all I ask is a thank you mick [ mower man ]

[Longboarder]

Pretty sure it's a 'New 3' so has a lower wishbone and does not use the sierra ARB.

Mine performs pretty well with spring rates from 120 to 180 on the front. I can't tell much difference in actual corning ability but the ride is better with the soft springs but photos show more roll. It doesn't skitter with the 180 springs on but it is on Toyo 888's run at 17psi.

 

Perhaps we should enquire what tyres and what tyre pressures eastyorks is running. Probably much more relevant (although it's only just occurred to me). Or even just say, Drop the pressures to 17psi all round and go out for a drive. Then report back.

 

Nigel

 

ps. New 3 was best of the monocoques as far as front suspension design. A 3/3A with ARB removed and tiebars fitted is as good. IMO

A Westfield is better but not hugely.

Edited February 1, 2015 by Longboarder

[Guest eastyorks]

Thanks guys, yes its definitely a new 3, the suspension arms came fitted to the tub but strangely missing its lower rear bush bolts.

Anyway I ran 18psi rear and 16 front. Ive greased all the swivel point's and the arms do move but theres no rebound to speak of.

if you push the suspension down on an everyday car it will return to its ride height, mine doesn't.

I've also noticed the steering arms are not level but travel up towards the hubs, probably 10-15°.

The rack is attached between the chassis brackets so not possible to lift.

 

the wheels and tyres came with the kit, 5 spoke audi type fitted with evo tyres, probably some cheap deal Richard found at the time.

 

I'm still of the opinion the dampers are restricting the free movement so time to visit dampertec, i was quoted around £220.

 

Ps. Nigel is it possible you can send me a pic of your suspension from the front so I can compare rack/track rod end location?

Pmb1ok@hotmail.com

 

Cheers, Paul

Edited February 1, 2015 by eastyorks

[Guest eastyorks]

Just seen a previous post by a member who was suffering bump steer on his mk 3. Longboarder, Nigel, mentions that he raised his steering rack.

As mine is bolted between upper and lower mounting holes can you share your modification?

 

Cheers paul

[Longboarder]

This is it from the front a few years back. At rest the lower wishbone is about parallel to the ground (But is now set at 5deg droop). The upper wishbone rises at about 10 degrees. Note you have to raise the dummy strut in its housing to get it to do this. (The wishbones should not be parallel to each other.) The rack central mount was raised about 1.5 inch so the trackrod arm is a couple of degrees higherangle than the lower wishbone. This eliminates bump steer. (Trial and error to find how much the steering rack needs to be 'shimmed' upwards. I used lots of washers till I got the length and then made up solid shims.)

 

If you jack up the car, unbolt the shocks lower end and pull clear, remove the wheels. Now you can raise and lower the whole front suspension and get a feel of how much resistance there is to movement. It should easily drop by its own weight but you should feel a slight 'stiction' as you lift it. Otherwise you will have play in the system.

 

If you are going to raise the rack you will need to fabricate a top bracket which you can't see in the pic.

 

Nigel

[Longboarder]

'Quick and dirty' simple check for bump steer. Place a copy of any magazine under each front wheel so there is little friction to resist turning. Tie a 2metre wooden batten to the outside of each front tyre so they stick forward. Tie a length of string to the tip of one batten and thread a 19mm nut on the string. Tie to the other batten tip with with a bit of droop for the nut so it sits in the centre of the string holding it in a broad slight V. Place jack under centre of car and raise and lower the car. By watching the string you can see if it tightens or slackens as you raise and lower it. The less V in the string the easier it is to see small changes! Shim the rack up or down until it does neither. (Or as close as you can get it.)

 

Nigel

Edited February 2, 2015 by Longboarder

[Guest eastyorks]

Nigel, many thanks, pictures are great. My rack is way too low as yours was so will lift and weld on new top mounting plates.

Top suspension arms were also nipping on the bushes so all copper greased. Have set the susp units to lowest setting and bottom arm is just running down, still going to swap for spax asap. lifted top hub mounting also.

 

how did Richard ever get to be let loose on designing cars??when you think about it how simple would it have been to just engineer the suspension properly aka westfield, rush, 7, at base cost it would have added very little to kit cost and saved people this hassle!

 

cheers again, Paul

[Guest eastyorks]

Update, adjusted everything as Nigel advised and wow it now drives great, no more jumping across

The road and no more brown trousers!

Just wondered if anyone had a spare 5 spoke alloy that came with new series 3.

I believe they were audi 80 original fitment.

 

Cheers paul

[Longboarder]

Now you need to check all the front suspension angles although from what you say they won't be far out.

Castor is the angle of the imaginary kingpin, a line through the centres of the top and bottom ball joints when viewed from the side of the car. 6 or 7 degrees negative.

Camber is the angle of the wheel rim to the vertical when viewed from in front of the car. 1 or 2 degrees negative.

Toe is the distance variation from parallel between the front wheel rims measured at 3 and 9 oclock which you probably already know.

 

The position of the mushroom that mounts the top wishbone mount is important. The ball joint is mounted off centre in it and the hole it mounts in should be as far outward as possible. i.e. opposite the strut clamping slit. And enough of the mushroom must be in the clamp for it to be held tight.

Castor can be increased by shimming the upper wishbone backwards and the lower wishbone forwards. This increases self centering. If you have to make tiny but continuous steering corrections when on a nice flat straight motorway you need more castor. If the car doesn't straighten up coming out of a corner you need lots more castor. (Seldom come across anyone with too much castor but you would need to be He-Man to get round a corner and likely to loose a finger as the wheel snaps back to straight ahead!)

Camber is altered by turning the top balljoint stem in or out of the wishbone end. Make sure the Mushroom goes back in the top strut hole clamp correctly orientated.

 

Nigel

 

ps I have 4 spare original wheels but they have been in a leaky Anderson shelter for 5 years and the lacquer on them is poor and there is some corrosion under it. Needs a refurb if you like them shiny. I will get them out and take a pic of the best. Yours for the postage.

Edited February 6, 2015 by Longboarder