No Spark , Help

[Guest deebee 55]

super spec rover t series cant get a spark , this is a new build on a car lost to this world for ten years in someones garage so now need to find out if the motor lives before commencing the build the ecu looks new but not sure if its shot anyone help please im desperate cheers

[tractor]

Alan Richie is the rover superset man

[alanrichey]

True Here are my first thoughts:

 

As a first check of the ECU, does it run the fuel pump for a couple of seconds when you first turn on the ignition ? And when you turn off the ignition do you hear the idle stepper motor click about 5 times ?

 

Do you have a copy of the wiring diagram ?

 

Have you tried another coil ?

[Guest deebee 55]

Hi Alan thanks for your reply , First let me go into a little more detail just to bore you ridged but I think a bit of history might help along the way , I first came across this car some six years ago at that time it had been bought by a friend who I was visiting in devon , I was his best man many years before he bought the car form a chap near him who in turn bought it from RH he tried to put the thing together and after hanging a few bit on that he recognised albeit in the wrong order gave up and sold it to my friend who dry stored it with the intension of fixing it but he to reached the conclusion he was out of his depth also , I then met him again just recently and asked about the car and he said hev still had it and had done no more to it , so being an ex mechanic and just retired I found myself saying let me fix it up for you ( as my heart lies firmly fixed in cars I couldn't imagine this thing that deserved a lift dying in devon )

 

last weekend I hired a trailer went 3 and a half hours south and dragged this thing home what my friend failed to tell me was three years ago the polly tunnel blew away leaving the car exposed to the weather by the time I found out it was to late I was commited

when I got it back I decided if the engine dosen't run the its scrap and there was going to be no point in hanging the bright stuff on un till I knew there was life in it .

 

the wiring diagrahm was a right mess and bore only a passing resemblance to what I had however I rigged up a very bacic starting circuit I;e battery - to both engine and frame + to starter along with the power feed into the engine loom then went to the ign switch and put three wires on to that brown permanent feed white switched live to the + side of coil along with a fused green pink from the ecu the -side of the coil I put the white and black (cb) from the ecu now it should fire but no to day I phoned british sports car ? they were less than helpful apart from to tell me an ecu is seven hundred quid and that against my religion so here I am

[Guest deebee 55]

sorry in reply to you questions I was going to test this as a bench test so the fuel pump is not yet connected and I have to confess I have no idea what a stepper motor is

[Guest deebee 55]

also I'm getting 0.5 ohms across the primary windings of the coil which in my book makes it ok

[agent_zed]

stepper motors are used to open and close things. So it can open and close the throttle etc when it needs to i.e. when the car is started from cold it can adjust the flaps to make sure the engine doesn't stall. Basically an auto choke that uses a motor instead of bimetallic strips etc. Well thats my understanding from the old transit carb with ecu my dad had.

[alanrichey]

OK, you seem to jumping the gun a bit. I would take it much slower, and in particular do some research on the system first. The MEMS ECU is quite complex and even though I have been studying it for over 2 years there are still a lot of things I don't understand. For example, it is quite possible that if the ECU does not receive a signal from the Crankshaft Position Sensor when you start to crank that it will inhibit the spark. Who knows ?

 

1. I suggest you have a look at my blog (in the signature), to see what I have done over the last 3 years. Particularly the electrical stuff.

 

2. Download this PDF File.http://www.howacarworks.com/manuals/doc/d3167-rovermems-pdf/read/html It is Chapter 14 of the Haynes manual on Engine Management Systems and covers our ECU.

 

3. I agree the wiring diagram is a bit rough, but that is all we have. Keep analysing it, I still learn something every time I look at it. But be aware that the Superspec wiring is slightly different pre and post-2005.

 

4. I am not surprised at the quote from GBS (Or their attitude. Remember they are in the business of selling Zero's). In fact I am amazed they actually have one in stock. These were one-off ECUs that were modified in the early 90s (by a firm that is long gone) to remove the immobiliser function. Having said that I have never heard of one going wrong, they seem to be fairly bullet proof.

 

5. I am a bit stuck for advice as I did not personally build my Superspec so didn't do the original wiring. I suggest you PM 'ArthRev'. He picked up a Superspec in exactly the same state as yours a few months ago and I know he has the engine running.

 

6. Looking at the current list of Superspec owners that still have the Rover engine, there is no-one really close to you that you could visit. 'edbond' is the closest at Worcester (45 mls), 'AndyW' is at Bedford (62 miles) and I am near Grantham (70 miles). The rest are over 100 miles away. Might still be worth a visit though.

 

7. Check out my MEMSAnalyser program http://www.rmrsoft.com/mems/index.htm. I built this to analyse the output of the ECU and, importantly for you, it will display any fault codes. If you want to borrow my data lead for a few days (I use it a lot) let me know.

 

8. If you can hang on till next May Bank Holiday there will be at least 5 Superspecs with Rover engines on the Club Stand at Stoneleigh, which seems to be just down the road from you.

 

However, my initial advice remains unchanged. If you haven't found the fuel pump wiring on the loom then find the cluster of 3 Main relays (ECU, Fuel, Lambda), You can identify them from the wire colours marked on the wiring diagram. You can then run circuit tests on them. This is what should happen:

 

1. Turn ignition on and you should feel the ECU Relay click and feed power to the ECU.

2. The Fuel Relay should click on and 2 seconds later click off.

3. When you crank the engine the Fuel Relay should click.on.

4. When you turn the ignition off you should hear a succession of clicks from in the region of the throttle body.

5. Ten seconds or so later the ECU Relay should click off.

 

If all that happens the odds are the ECU is fine.

 

Feel free to PM me if you have any more questions.

Edited September 30, 2016 by alanrichey

[Guest mcramsay]

Good advice above. Generally most ecu's will not provide an output to the coil to spark if a signal from the crank is not present as it uses the cps as the timing reference point.

 

If when you turn the key you do not get an output to the pump and things don't spring to life then I would go back to absolute basics. Check the ecu is getting power first and has a ground. That way you can be sure the ecu is actually turning on.

 

If you are using the original ecu with its own contained wiring loom then the actual connections to the car wiring loom are much less. All you should need to locate are the power, (constant 12v & switched from the ignition barrel) and then grounds.

 

As I said take it methodically and prove one circuit at a time. That will give you a good starting position.

[Guest ArthRev]

Hi all, my son Ben is the key mechanic on our super spec. Ours is running from being in a pretty bad shape. I'll let him read through the replies and put up any thoughts....

[Guest lotusPaul]

If I can be blunt and I apologize first and foremost for it if it offends,

 

Forget the engine and rip it out. I will stick my neck on the line and say this anyway,but I feel you will spend a load of cash on an old engine.

 

Bin it and get a new crated zetec or even a duratec.

 

Both much more reliable and easier to play with. Duratec are a bit more expensive tho.

 

Go to omex / emerald etc and go full management from the off.

 

You will get a package working quicker better and new.

 

Were I say it cheaper too.

 

Only my opinion,

[Guest deebee 55]

thanks for all your replies much apreaciated i now have the problem sorted it was a simple matter of a faulty ecu relay plus the crimped electrical fittings being poor so have now replaced all with soldered joints things are now on the up , so thanks again oh just to end i found the tank wiring the guy had taped it to the spare wheel rack thinking it was for the number plate light durr !!

[alanrichey]

thanks for all your replies much apreaciated i now have the problem sorted it was a simple matter of a faulty ecu relay plus the crimped electrical fittings being poor so have now replaced all with soldered joints things are now on the up , so thanks again oh just to end i found the tank wiring the guy had taped it to the spare wheel rack thinking it was for the number plate light durr !!

 

Good. Looking forward to hearing about progress. Start a build blog

[alanrichey]

If I can be blunt and I apologize first and foremost for it if it offends,

 

Forget the engine and rip it out. I will stick my neck on the line and say this anyway,but I feel you will spend a load of cash on an old engine.

 

Bin it and get a new crated zetec or even a duratec.

 

Both much more reliable and easier to play with. Duratec are a bit more expensive tho.

 

Go to omex / emerald etc and go full management from the off.

 

You will get a package working quicker better and new.

 

Were I say it cheaper too.

 

Only my opinion,

 

Not offended at all but not sure I see the logic. If you change the engine that will result in a bill of hundreds of pounds, whereas staying with the Rover will cost you nothing. And while I agree it is an old engine, it is well proven, powerful enough (136 bhp), there are still spare parts available and it is basically bullet proof. Mine now has 16K miles on it and hasn't missed a beat.

 

Originally I would have liked the idea of having an Emerald ECU, in fact that is the route jmspec has taken on his. But again we are talking about a lot of money and now we have researched the Rover MEMS system I think we can do most of what we could do with the Emerald.

 

The only advantage I could see would be the better mating with the MT75 gearbox, which has always been the weak point of the Superspec design..

 

Also just my opinion, but based on 3 years living with the engine, which I have grown to love

[AndyW]

I agree with Al and Wanderer. There's no real need to change the engine. The Rover T16 2litre dohc is plenty powerful for the car with 136 bhp and nicely torquey with 136 lb ft. It may be 20 years old (even older if you consider the design history), but it works nicely, is relatively simple compared to modern engines, and is easy to work on.

 

My engine has only got 3K miles on it so it's hardly even run in yet. (I have had to rebuild the head and valves due cambelt snapping, but that's a long story - see other threads!)