Fuel Pipe Warning

[Guest kevin booth]

Just checked my diff oil and found fuel pipes perished that bad that you could see the braiding, It is ten years old but would have thought it would have lasted longer than that.

[fry61]

Ethanol is probably to blame -- 5% mix with petrol, oil companies don't need to tell -- 10% & the pumps are marked -- more common on continent.

[Steve49er]

Would add to Bob's comment I have been told anyone with an older motorcycle 60's -70's with Fibre Glass Tanks (Royal Enfield 250 Sport etc) that the Ethanol attacks and the tank has gone.

Ethanol also I understand attacks Fuel Lines but I am sure there are a lot of other very clever people on here who will know far more on this subject than me, understand that lots of Vintage and Veteran vehicle owners not too happy.

Edited May 16, 2016 by Steve49er

[Guest kevin booth]

Just found this on another site

 

Fuel pipe research (long!) - for discussion!

You may recall that I had a rant about rotting flexible fuel pipe a while ago (LINKY).

In the end I did a lot of internet research, and came up with the following observations:

Background

* Since getting my car on the road 7 or 8 years ago I have had to replace rotted flexible fuel hoses 3 times. Each time the hose has cracked and was dripping fuel everywhere.
* I have always used decent quality hose (Gates, or similar).
* It seemed to happen randomly but especially after a long spell in the garage, whether due to bad weather or whatever. (significant point #1)
* Some other people had similar problems.
* More people were using similar hose and having no problems (significant point #2)

Results of research

* Petrol has changed significantly over past few years - it now contains more alcohol-based substances, which are very corrosive to normal rubber.
* Hoses in the USA are marked with an SAE code, e.g. SAE J30R9, according to its ability to resist modern fuels. As much of the hose bought in the UK is made (or sold) in the USA then these markings may appear here.
* There are 4 significant groups of SAE codes:
Unmarked hose - will probably be for the original petrol formula, without modern additives (but see later comments).
30R6 - This is the standard for the petrol formula of 5 - 10 years ago, for fuel injection. The bore may or may not be lined with Nitrile.
30R7 - This is the standard for the petrol formula of 2 or 3 years ago, for fuel injection. The bore is lined with Nitrile.
30R9 / 30R10 - This is the current standard. The bore is lined with Fluoroelastomer/Nitrile. 30R9 has Fluoroelastomer/Nitrile on the inside, while 30R10 has it inside and out, which allows it to be used immersed in petrol (e.g. in a fuel tank).
* There is also a marine grade for use in boats - ISO 7480 A1 - that is roughly equivalent to 30R7-and-a-bit, with added fire resistance.
* One of the causes of fuel pipe failure described in the USA literature is stale modern fuel, not so much the fuel itself. These fuels become extra-corrosive when they get old.
* The USA seem to use a higher percentage of alcohol in their regular fuel - but we're not far behind in Europe.

What got me angry...

* Gates in the USA only make and sell fuel pipe of grade 30R9 or better (they even have brand-new super-grades). Gates in the UK distribute unmarked hose to motor factors that, if you are lucky, is only 30R6. Why don't we get the same? Are they dumping their surplus stock on the UK?
* The Gates sales rep for the UK and Europe didn't know that the USA grades were far higher than his offerings - he didn't even know the trade names for the USA products (shown in every USA Gates catalogue).
* 30R9 is freely available on the USA ebay, at sensible prices, made by big-name manufacturers such as Gates and Goodyear. It is never (or maybe rarely) available on the UK ebay. Only the excessive postage stopped me from buying it there.
* One on-line supplier (Think Auto) advertised that their hose is 30R9, but when it turned up it was unmarked. I recognised that it was stuff that I'd used previously and told them so. To their credit they apologised, refunded my money AND paid for the return postage.
* There is a general ignorance about this whole issue - when I asked for a specific grade of hose many suppliers didn't comprehend, while others were almost abusive ("Our stuff is good enough...!).
* The one who did supply the correct hose, Hose World, advertised it as 30R10 on their website, the bloke on the phone didn't think it was any special grade when I asked, and when it turned up it was 30R9, which is what I was after in the first place!
* If you search on any USA car forum about fuel pipe you will see that most people are fully aware of this issue, and the need to use modern hose. There seems to be a general ignorance in the UK.

Last thoughts and recommendations

It was almost certainly stale fuel that rotted my fuel pipe(s).

1. Don't buy general-purpose hose from a motor factor, unless it has at least 30R9 printed on it. Even stuff off the Gates stand isn't good enough.
2. If you are getting it via the internet or mail order, don't be fobbed off by excuses. Only the proper stuff is safe for long-term use.
3. If you are going to leave your car unused for a month or so, consider draining the petrol, especially if you are unsure of your fuel pipe grade.
4. If you really can't get 30R9, consider getting ISO 7480 - this is easily available from marine suppliers in the UK (but see point 3). All proper fuel pipe in this grade has to be marked, to meet regulations.

Additional thought

Re-reading some of the websites I found during this research reminded me of an important indication of fuel pipe decay - smell.

If you go into your garage and there is a stink of petrol, but you can't find a leak, then it is very likely that vapour is permeating through the fuel hose. If this is the case then it is a fair bet that the hose will fail sometime in the near future... maybe not immediately, but sometime.

[Bob Tucker]

Thats food for thought.....

My car always smells of petrol

The fuel pipe hasnt been changed since I built the car in 2000.

[Guest 2b cruising]

Changed the pipe between sender and hp pump last year and has smelt of petrol ever since.

Guess what I am looking at tomorrow.

Thanks for the great information and obvious previous hard work you have done Kevin.

I'm sure many members will be interested in this subject.

 

Ken.

[kevin the chicken]

Just for once I am ahead of the game. After having three hoses perish over the winter I decided to replace mine with correctly marked marine grade. My car was drained down yet the old ones just cracked and perished. Maybe we should just treat them as a consumable and replace them at regular intervals during servicing.

The only downside that I can see is the marine grade I have is much bigger even though it has the same bore and may look a bit clumsy where it is visible.

[Snapperpaul]

After a very interesting seminar from tech ed John of Complete kitcar it seems that copper micro bore central heating often used for the long run from tank to engine bay is also the wrong stuff to use.

I have twin copper pipe built in and now need to replace this with kunifer and I'm not happy about that as it was a pig of a job when the car was half built.

[WallerZ]

I've just renewed all my fuel hose on my Zero as the rear pipes were perishing pretty back at the rear of the car and starting to go in the engine bay. This was the GBS standard fuel hose (no idea what grade) but it had only been on the car for 2 years (of which a year was being built).

I have some R9 rated stuff from CBS. I paid the price tag as getting in to change the fuel hoses in the engine bay is now an engine out jobby. Will be interesting to see how it holds up again.

[steve in stockport]

R9 has been the recommended spec for a few years now. I used advanced fluid solutions for mine, quick delivery and all the hose is marked up with the specs. Also used their 11.5mm bio hose from swirl pot to fuel pump, a bit expensive at £21 a metre but better than keep changing the wrong grade of pipe. As for copper, I've had copper flow and return along the tunnel for 11 years so far.

[cb750]

I changed my hoses to hose supplied by AFS. It is proof against biofuels and is fitted to bmw, Mercedes etc

 

http://www.advancedfluidsolutions.co.uk/73mm-id-516-100-bio-fuel-hose-diesel--petrol-2013-p.asp

 

Now it looks like I will need to look at changing the copper lines!

[steve in stockport]

I don't think I'd be changing the copper pipes unless there's a better reason than it being the wrong stuff.

[fry61]

There has been talk/whispers of all old carbs with brass components being degraded by the ethanol content in to-days fuels, but beleive it's such a slow process that there is no point in changing either copper lines or carbs until signs of fuel leaking ,by smell or wetness.

 

(Was told years ago that central heating oil ((28sec redwood/diesil )) corroded the solder joints on our long run from tank to boiler -- asked how long would the joints last -- oh, probably a century or so.)

[Peter Bell]

 

The stock lines with the kit were 100R6 and lasted around 2 years

!00 R6 should never be used with petrols it has a nitrile liner and intended for use with mineral oils. Also ok for water hoses