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Snapperpaul

New Emissions Proposals For Kit Cars

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No, I agree with you Richard. As long as cars already on the road are not retrospectively changed in terms of rules (why would they do that, how would that be fair, you can't suddenly ask a 40 year old classic car to make modern standards - it's not what the proposal is about), and there is enough swap-over time to allow those mid-build to complete to the rules they started out on, then I think it works fairly.

 

Since the date of first registration and the emmission requirements are all things filling in on the V5, and having recently done one for a semi-modern engine, the IVA inspector didn't provide any emmission requirements/standards to my car recently, even though a test was conducted against Euro IV standards. Transposing that to the V5 application form (or not, more accurately), and speaking with DVLA themselves, they agreed PLG was the correct class since the other option was for a new vehicle, which was all the modern tax bands. I took some time to ask if I wanted to go against the new standards but you don't get a result from the IVA test that quantifies CO2 emmissions in g/km... so you can't really accurate decide which band you're in unless you can prove the engine age. My Rover would have been pre-cat era, I looked up an MGF and it was in the 171-190g/km band, which is an £800 first fee :-o and then £140 thereon in.

 

I took the decision to not push for the modern banding and just stick with the PLG old-style charge that DVLA suggested, partly on initial cost but also out of simplicity in the future! But, if I had been forced to take the modern banding, it would have long-term been a more cost effective solution (despite that initial sting of £800). Also worth bearing in mind is that in reality my car is almost definitely putting out less than a pre-cat MGF, because I've added a CAT to it, so if I could have somehow got proven g/km figures on the new engine, I'd almost definitely have been in a lower band, but you're only really saving on that initial registration fee anyway now, post-March-2017.

Edited by brumster

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One more thought; the kit manufacturers, and clubs, need to get behind this too -

 

Wideband/Narrowband kits should be front and centre on the agenda to discuss with any builder targeting road use.

Its really not, or shouldn't be, optional equipment anymore.

 

Same way Emerald re-sells 14point7 kit, Kit-spares should be too + their base maps re-worked to use it properly - Wideband potentially makes those base maps more useful - letting the ECU account for small differences in manufacture, installation or wear and tear.

 

 

I got through IVA (latest emission standards) without any lambda sensor...few simple tweaks to the map and done...

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Despite being caught up in this unfortunately timed legislation change - I do fully agree with the principle. The environmental issue is important and If I were starting a build right now it would be a Zero (preferably) or a Haynes but would definitely be using a stock MX5 engine as they are cheap/good and plentiful in scrapyards or on Ebay these days (as the Dft document states) and this emissions change wouldn't be an issue.

 

I'm following the similar thread on LCB closely too - but prefer to ask on here as some people are getting a bit 'shirty' with others who are not fully understanding the meaning/implications (probably due to being concerned of the impact).

 

So am I right in saying if this passes - If you submit a (CAT'less) - jumble of parts no donor info -1989 Pinto efi for IVA, it will still be tested against an 'age related' emissions standard during the IVA test - Correct thus far?

 

Then when you come to register it after IVA - You will still be given a 'Q' plate if you don't have the donor info (I assume they are not planning to change this) and then allowed to drive it on the road.

 

Then - 1 year later when you are due an MOT - The car will then be tested against the 'current' MOT emissions standard of 0.2% and 200ppm at fast idle/0.3 % at idle? Is this correct?

 

Cheers

Tony

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No, if this proposal, and that is all it is at the moment, is passed into legislation, when that legislation comes into effect then all cars presented at IVA apart from those with exceptions (classic cars requiring IVA) will need to pass modern emissions standards, regardless of age of engine.

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So am I right in saying if this passes - If you submit a (CAT'less) - jumble of parts no donor info -1989 Pinto efi for IVA, it will still be tested against an 'age related' emissions standard during the IVA test - Correct thus far?

No, as per Duck ^^^. Tough to meet based on the criteria you've specified (ie. no cat). Probably not tough to meet with a cat added, assuming engine in good condition, systems working nominally, etc.

 

Then when you come to register it after IVA - You will still be given a 'Q' plate if you don't have the donor info (I assume they are not planning to change this) and then allowed to drive it on the road.

No change to this part of the process; registration plate will be age related if you can prove enough of a single donor used, otherwise Q, yes.

 

Then - 1 year later when you are due an MOT - The car will then be tested against the 'current' MOT emissions standard of 0.2% and 200ppm at fast idle/0.3 % at idle? Is this correct?

No, you'd be tested by the emmissions standards/requirements that were defined in step 1 above, when you registered it - which would be the present-day requirements. So the emmissions requirements are decided and set in place for that particular car at the time of registration, and will stay with it for the life of the car (assuming no further changes to engine of course!)

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Ok Many thanks for clearing that up fully chaps - much appreciated.

 

This is exactly how I read it originally - but a few people have been suggesting that it only applies to MOT not at IVA which is where I got confused (not difficult these days!).

 

@Dan - Thanks for the positive input regarding my particular engine setup. I'm a bit more hopeful now that with a big enough CAT it should get below the limits. I know the engine has been well looked after (it was Dereks full pinto setup before he went to Red top). Once it's up and running again - I think a trip to a garage on the back of a trailer is in order to double check emissions!

 

Cheers

Tony

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Well, after this Saturday, you're welcome to bring it here and rig it up on my newly-acquired analyser :D !

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Thanks Dan! - I should remember where you live as my car is still sporting your old Exmo's nose cone! :)

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I'm afraid that I still don't get it.

 

Why then does 4.10 say

 

'4.10 Kit cars and reconstructed classic cars undergoing IVA will not be required to meet WLTP, given that at present they are not required to meet NEDC or the latest EU standards. Instead they are tested to age-appropriate MOT standards, on the basis of the date of manufacture or first use of the engine.'

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From what i read above, and i Might not have this right so correct me if i am reading this wrong...

 

Current situatuion is If you are making a car and want it registered with an age-related plate (e.g. 2001) you use parts from a car that is that age, same as always. This is no different to if i drive a car of the same age. It's mot is tested to 2002 standards.

 

What this is saying (from what i understand) is that although you have a 2001 plate car we are going to test you for a 2018 car. So we won't be giving you the benefit of a 2018 plate but we'll give you the hassle of having to meet it's standards.

 

Additional concerns, apart from additional cost, is taxation. What will it be taxed as? If it uses the new system you might get away with it being cheaper to tax. But what if you spend a load of money getting to the 2018 standard but you are still taxed on the old rules.

 

Given that DVLA aren't exactly consistent with kitcars, i can imagine a fair few problems at the MOT station with the automated system.

Thats a good point about registration plate.

Also what had not been said is what happens to a Q plate.

I get the feeling this is purely an emissions based consultation and the registration plate options are not being considered

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I didn't think that IVA was an issue. 4.10 on the first post seems to say that IVA won't be affected.

 

However MOT will be if the changes come into force.

 

The whole document is here

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/678209/road-vehicles-improving-air-quality-and-safety.pdf

 

 

You emissions are dictated by IVA and put on your V5 in this case the newest requirement

On my test emissions were done first, fail that and they dont progress with the test

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Now this thread is starting to pi55 me off.

Part reading the consultation to find the bit you like and ignoring the rest

OR

deciding its retrosoective when it clearly is not

WHICH

starts others off on promulgating the incorrect facts and blurring the discussion

 

No rule change regarding cars has EVER be applied retrospectively

Excepting some easily achievable safety issues such as tyres

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so given that since 1992 there has been a requirement for a CAT then why not just leave as is. It's gettting less and less likely that anyone is going to use a pre-92 engine. That is 26 years ago. Sure my engine is from 91 but i built in 2002. If i built now unless i was really keen to have a pre-cat engine it would cost more to find a decent old engine than use a modern one. Finding a full donor to get age related would be quite expensive too.

 

I say leave it as is and it will sort itself out. The only change that could make sense is if the engine is upgraded at a later date the emmisions would have to meet the standards of the age of the engine. That would stop me for example sticking in a brand new zetec without a cat which i currently can do without a problem right now.

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I'm afraid that I still don't get it.

 

Why then does 4.10 say

 

'4.10 Kit cars and reconstructed classic cars undergoing IVA will not be required to meet WLTP, given that at present they are not required to meet NEDC or the latest EU standards. Instead they are tested to age-appropriate MOT standards, on the basis of the date of manufacture or first use of the engine.'

 

Hi emptyat - I think this is the part that was causing a little confusion. Although it's in a 'proposal document' - 4.10 is actually just reiterating how it stands with the 'current' system.

 

4.11 goes on to detail what they are proposing to change it to. As it states - when they register your car, it must comply with current mot emission standards which means it must have been tested at that level at IVA.

 

Snapper - I think everybody totally understands that it couldn't possibly be applied retrospectively. As you rightly say - motoring changes of this magnitude never are. :)

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