Engine Dilema

[Guest JabawokJayUK]

I'm after some advice.....

I have a 2B whcih is running a Ford Zetec SE 1600 (Sigma) engine on a Megasquirt MS2 Extra Engine Management System. It has some modified delorto carbs (they are cut in half) acting as ITB's (sort of). It runs ok, and has apparently around 144bhp. Being a Zetec SE, the exhaust exit is on the Off-Side of the car making sourcing a 4-2-1 Manifold to replace the puny 4-1 that is in place difficult, and likely needing a custom fabrication job.

So here is the dilemma!

Recently I picked up a Zetec S (1700 Puma Engine) for a small amount of money. Its the same bolt pattern, orientation and footprint, but has better internals than the SE, eg Steel crank and rods etc. The original plan was to strip this engine, put some hot cams in it, add some bike ITB's, get some head work done (flow/ported, lifters, springs), and then drop it in as a straight swap with a new beefy 4-2-1 exhaust. The target being around 200bhp.

Should I go this route, I can expect to pay £550 for cams, maybe another 200-300 on head work + the cost of a custom exhaust (I already have the ITB's), so maybe 2K all in.

However, along the way I picked up a set of GSXR ITB's on an ST170 manifold ready to bolt straight on an ST170 duratec engine (I also have a set of ZXR12 ITB's that are bigger but that would need a manifold, which I intend to design and 3dprint in Carbon reinforced Nylon).

So the thing is, given the duratec ST170 engine is the opposite orientation to the S & SE but the same orientation as the Zetec E (Blacktop), eg, "Exhaust on Nearside", there are far more 4-2-1 manifolds available off the shelf (and hopefully second hand) mitigating a potentially expensive custom fab job. Also, being a 2litre engine, with the ITB's and ECU I already have, I am pretty sure 200bhp is achievable without touching the head or opening the engine. Add to that the fact that a decent s/h engine can be had for 300-400 and I could potentially hit the 200bhp target for about 1K, but that excludes any subsequent conversion work I have to do on the gearbox hookup, engine mounts and bodywork.

I already plan to strip the car back to the chassis this winter, and therefore the engine is coming out regardless so while the S is an easier job, fitting something different is not a deal breaker.

Thoughts, opinions, advice all welcome!

[brumster]

If 200bhp is your only concern, drop the Sigma lump, go Zetec. It is the common sense way forward, easier in every way.

If you want to be different, prefer the character of the Sigma lump and want a little screamer, stick with the original plan.

I speak as the weirdo who put a 1600 K-Series in a Zero WTF would anyone do that?!

[theduck]

Either way, you will need a new ecu to correctly control the VVT correctly.  Both engines have continuously variable VVT, rather than a simple on or off style VVT.  This means you need an ECU with a PWM output that can be configured for VVT, unfortunately the MS2 does not have that.

EDIT TO ADD:  You could have your ecu upgraded to MS3 spec, which does have a PWM output that can be configured for VVT.  I would recommend speaking to whoever you intend to map the car though and go with their recommended solution.  

Edited September 6, 2019 by theduck

[Guest JabawokJayUK]

Thanks for that, yes, I am aware of that and have already spoken to Sean at MSTuning who originally set up the Sigma for the previous owner. My main concern is I dont want to end up 5K into an engine that I could have got to the same number with for 3K if you get my drift!

I love the character of the Sigma, but with the standard type 9 gear ratios its left wanting, hence the simple SE to S swap originally planned. Bit more power options for not too much money, leaving some potential to swap the gear ratios in the box.

I'm not looking for a track toy as its simply the wrong platform for that, but as a sunday screamer at around 140bhp its just the wrong side of a comfortable overtake for my liking! (My daily is a heavily modified alfa saloon diesel that makes 650 ft/lbs at the front wheels, but weighs in at 1800kg so I am used to a lot more pull on an overtake )

 

Sorry to clarify @brumster but do you mean the 2.0l black top zetec specifically? as many ford engines are classified as zetec including the sigma (Zetec S & SE variants). I see most people going the black top route but don't know much about it. Like I said, this is a bit of a dilemma and I'm not massively invested into anything at this point as the Zetec SE came with the car, I picked up the Zetec S for £120, and so far have found 2 sets of bike ITB's cheap(ish) so could easily make 2 viable engines to sell from what I have sat in the garage, in order to fund a different engine build such as the back top route?

Anyone got any rough expected figures for a standard black top 2.0l with 45mm bike ITBS on?

[Longboarder]

I run an ST170 and it has been a long hard and expensive road to get to 200BHP. You will need extensive headwork, all the usual as they are crudely finished and the exhaust ports are the same size as a blacktop, ie pretty small! Without fully controlling the inlet cam, power crashes above 5000rpm. Moving to the SE1700 has all the same problems.

If you are thinking of keeping to a budget then modifying the 1600SE or going blacktop zetec 2000 is easier, cheaper and you will get close to 200bhp. Just because you have an ST manifold is a daft reason to consider the engine to go with it. Proper duratec 2000 is an even easier engine to get to 200 horses and only a little more expensive.

 

[Guest JabawokJayUK]

5 minutes ago, Longboarder said:

Just because you have an ST manifold is a daft reason to consider the engine to go with it

Yeah I totally get that but I am not an expert on Ford engines so I really dont know whats possible in their range and therefore what the best route to go. The shear volume of variants all either called zetec or duratec is bad enough

I have no issue with throwing some money at a decent engine that's 200bhp base tune on ITB's knowing that in the future I could unlock more power if desired, with head work, cams or forced induction.

So all things being equal, whats the best engine (engine number / designation please) in the ford range that wont be a dick to bolt up to a type 9, fits in the bay and gives 200bhp on ITB's out the box?

[phaeton]

3 hours ago, brumster said:

I speak as the weirdo who put a 1600 K-Series in a Zero WTF would anyone do that?!

Because it is one of the best underrated engines available

[Longboarder]

Zetec blacktop 2.0L bolts onto type 9 standard bellhousing and I guess is easiest but won't get to more than 180 out of the box but 200 is easy. SE/Sigma is a yamaha engine so special bellhousing needed which I guess you already have but only 160. Duratec HE I4 2.0L is a mazda engine so needs a new bellhousing but would be closest to 200 out of the box.

I would probably go proper duratec if I was doing it today. Over the years I have had pinto, silvertop, blacktop, ST170.(all modified). Next step was going to be to supercharge the ST but I got too slow as I got older and the car got too fast. Most fun was probably the pinto. All sound and fury. The ST is silly. Find myself unintentionally doing 110 on a dual carriageway slip road when I just intended to get up to joining speed.

[brumster]

3 hours ago, JabawokJayUK said:

Sorry to clarify @brumster but do you mean the 2.0l black top zetec specifically? as many ford engines are classified as zetec including the sigma (Zetec S & SE variants). I see most people going the black top route but don't know much about it. Like I said, this is a bit of a dilemma and I'm not massively invested into anything at this point as the Zetec SE came with the car, I picked up the Zetec S for £120, and so far have found 2 sets of bike ITB's cheap(ish) so could easily make 2 viable engines to sell from what I have sat in the garage, in order to fund a different engine build such as the back top route?

I was referring more to the engine code names, rather than how Ford brand them. So by "Zetec" I mean the 1800 or 2000cc I believe, in cast iron block/alu head, exhaust ports on LHS (for a longitudinal config).

From my limited understanding the VVT variants are seldom worth the effort for the top-end head/power, although they have slightly better bottom ends, so I'd read your more cost effective going for a non-VVT engine and just working the head accordingly with new cams. Or I guess if you have a VVT engine, drop the variable timing aspect of it as you swap the cams, if that's possible.

You specifically only mentioned those two lumps but, as Longboarder said, if I was going for a simple 200bhp lump I would just go Duratec anyway. Far superior engine.

[DeanRudkin]

To throw a spanner in the works what about a zetec turbo is you have a ms2 and if that has all the software on for a turbo you can pick up a block for around 150 plenum from gbs for 250-300 and exhaust manifold from the scrapyard and weld a turbo flange on it Audi TT intercooler 20 and pipes and fittings and you should be able to hit 200 on stock internals or you do the same set up with a st170 and get a vvt controller and you can hit way over 200 

[Guest JabawokJayUK]

Ok, useful advice. The real issue here is I want 200+bhp and I don't want to spend the world getting there as there are diminishing returns for a 2B, and while I love it, eventually I will change it for something much lighter / faster I can build from the ground up myself.

As such I am happy to bin off all the engines / ITBs I have for a better / cheaper solution, should that present itself. 

So far the Duratec 2000 is getting a lot of love for a crate engine that does the 200 job without much effort.

[nelmo]

I'm no expert but a guy in a local club has just spent months getting an ST170 fitted and first trip out, it blew up - not sure exactly how but he has lots of metal chunks spread round the engine.

Basically, it never ran well because he couldn't get the VVT working right and he couldn't find any garage prepared to work on it for him - they said they didn't like the VVT. 

I'm not saying this is in any way normal but is my only experience of the ST 

Edited September 6, 2019 by nelmo

[Guest JabawokJayUK]

All very useful input folks, appreciated.

I am of course no further on with my dilemma and probably now have a few more options to consider